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What are peoples thoughts on pertex tops?
Am i right in thinking they are windproof only and dont forefill waterproof body cover kit requirements?
I have a gore-tex to, but its a tad on the bulky side so im looking for something that screws up smaller...
ta
Pete
A Pertex top is one of the most useful bits of running kit you can have imho
They are not water-proof but will 'screw up smaller' than a similarly sized Gore-tex jacket
I have the Montane Minimus 2.5 Pertex Shield. Absolutely waterproof with taped seams and hood, fully wind proof and really breathable, its a brilliant piece of kit and I paid £108 by shopping around, normally £120. Will pass a kit check no problem. Screws up to a big apple size and lightweight. Check out the Montane website for details. Hope this helps
Lots of decent pertex tops out there from about £30-40 upwards. Not waterproof but lots of us prefer them in reasonable conditions when waterproof is not asked for in the kit requirements (or sometimes as well as a waterproof if one is). The argument will rage on endlessly but one school of thought is that even the best waterproofs still produce/trap more condensation than a pertex, hence you will end up wet in them and therefore they dont necessarily keep you any warmer or dryer than pertex which is usually lighter and more comfortable - but plenty on here will disagree. Other arguments are that on a hot sunny day you might put a pertex on for sun protection when you would never want to wear a waterproof and that the comfort/lightness of one means you are more likely to wear it earlier and hence keep warmer when you might delay putting a waterproof on. Have a look at the EDZ version of pertex - not cheap but very comfortable and light and more or less waterproof for most purposes except kit checks - I use mine a lot when not actually required to carry waterproofs - just as long as you are prepared to have a waterproof as well or instead when one is asked for. If not just take your waterproof, but not all of us like that option all the time.
There are waterproofs that you buy 'to run in comfortably when its pissing it down', and waterproofs that you buy 'to put in your bumbag to stay safe' in case you have to stop / retire in a race on a mildly cold / wet / blustery day, and to meet the race kit rules. Keep both handy and choose the most appropriate on the day. The former will cost you a bit (upwards of £50 and in some cases £100), the latter you can pick up for <£10 in most outdoorsy shop sales. Although I had both already, I still couldn't resist buying a £5 jack-in-a-pack at Blacks / Millets (cant remember which) in Ambleside in early Jan. It's windproof and waterproof with taped seams (carried but not yet tested:w00t:), and dead light. It was shop labelled as '£5 reduced from £25', when I got to the till it rang in as £10, but the duty manager honoured the £5 labelling. It's a XS (explains the discount) but fits me snug (I'm a S) and if I never get to need it is will eventually get handed down to one of my daughters no doubt, for junior use.
PS - was penning this as Mark G posted!
I believe I'm right in saying that it will pass kit check if it has taped seams.
I quite like them for general running in weather that isn't too horrific, but I've never really expected to stay dry.
Pertex isn't waterproof reguardless of whether it has taped seems, but you wouldn't tape a non waterproof fabric.Quote:
Originally Posted by zephr
I have seen some incredibly light waterproofs though although if the weather was looking cold and I was going out for a while I'd take a better quality one. I wouldn't want to sit down for 3 hours in the dark with a ultralight waterproof.
Weather was very cold and windy today on Howden edge, I wore a pertex and I was fine but I had my waterproof in my bumbag in case things went bad...
Ah- My apologies, the taped one is made of something ever so slightly heavier material than pertex.
The only thing I'd add to the discussion/thread is, get a smock rather than a full zip jacket, because I find I can wack a smock on in windy conditions a lot easier than a full zip jacket. In fact I might go look for a smock full water-proof now I think of it. My pertex is a Montane btw, and very nice it is too....
Pertex isn't waterproof, although it can be treated to make it waterproof. Regardless of issues of passing the waterproof body cover kit inspection. A windproof pertex jacket is a great bit of kit to have, breaths much better than any waterproof material, including proofed pertex, so is cooler and more comfortable than wearing a waterproof. Think of a day like today, mild but windy with the odd light rain shower, or cold dry days pertex is perfect. I would not do without mine.
cheers guys.. some food for pay day so to speak :)
But aren't the alpkit hunka bivvy bags pertex? I know thay don't claim they're waterproof but come to that no fabric is 100% waterproof is it?
They are treated, so they are waterproof, but waterproof in most cases a question of the amount of water a material will resist. They use a column of water to express the degree of resistance a material has. From memory Gore-Tex is something like 8000mm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouse
WaterProof has a very specific meaning It has to be able to with stand a collum of water 1,000mm high as a starting point for very basic lightweight fabrics, Goretex is tested to 20,000mm but will probably go higher than 50,000 with a strong face fabricQuote:
Originally Posted by Grouse
Under 1000mm you can only say resistent. if the fabric is "waterproof" but it has stitched non sealed seams you cannot call it water proof. Most rucsacs are a case in point the fabrics are waterproof but unless they have taped or glued seems they are not "waterproof Rucsacs"
WATERPROOFING IN MM TRANSLATED
•0mm: obviously not waterproof in any way. Sieves, screen doors, basketball nets.
•0mm-1000mm: rain resistant, but not rainproof. Most stretch-woven softshells fall here.
•1000mm-5000mm: rainproof but not waterproof under pressure (sitting on or leaning against wet surfaces). Engineered (laminated) softshells, inexpensive rain shells, low-end ski and snowboard wear.
•5000mm-15,000mm: totally rainproof and generally waterproof unless under serious pressure (extended sitting, submersion, heavy people sitting). Most proprietary coatings (generally, liquid polyurethane coatings that become porous when applied to fabrics and cured) fall in this range.
•15,000mm-30,000mm: totally waterproof, even under serious pressure. High-end proprietary PU laminates, PTFE membranes like eVent and GORE-TEX® fabrics. Can withstand shallow-depth submersion without leaking (fishing waders, drysuits for sailing).
Alpkit Hunka bivvy bags aren't made from Pertex-branded fabric. Pertex used to be made by Perseverance Mills in Padiham, which at one time had been an umbrella fabric factory. I think the Pertex brand is now owned by a Japanese company
Good techy info re proofing Ian! :cool:
http://www.pertex.com/ has history and info on brand and fabrics
Don't get confused between Pertex and Pertex Shield - they aren't the same. Pertex on its own is highly windproof and extrmely breathable, and water repellent when treated with a hydorphobic chemical (whilst it lasts). It's perfect for general running, but won't keep out prolonged rain or pass kit checks where waterproof is stated. Pertex Shield IS waterproof as it has a polyurethane laminate added to the Pertex face fabric, and will pass a kit check if seams are taped.
This article gives a good summary of its properties:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ex_shield.html
It's funny how these keep coming back up, We had then all on a reproofing/washing thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
The umbrella fabric was back in the 1920s or 1930s iirc FJ
A bit of an anamoly is that a paramo waterproof wouldn't pass a kit check and neither would a ventile top if you could still get such a thing but I would rate either as much better extreme weather protection than most running cags albeit not the easiest things to get in your bumbag!
Are we all posting so often at the moment because we are checking every half hour or so to see if a certain race entry has gone 'live'? The next race will be to the post box when it does.
secondedQuote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
I wouldn't pay more than £35 for one - just get the basic Montane Litespeed, all the others just have unnecessary bells and whistles to excuse raising the price by howevermuch.
their 'Marathon' jacket is on special offer at amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002RD1ZO...S&linkCode=asn
Not sure how this is meant to be better than the basic Litespeed one, which is also on sale:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002NQ9E5...G&linkCode=asn
The Marathon looks a bit like the H20 jacket, which I also have, and which also has the big drawback of having no pockets of any sort. It's more rain-resistant and less breathable than the Litespeed.
The breast pocket in the Litespeed is quite big and very useful for hat, gloves, map etc.
Mark I would pass the waterproof range of Paramo as waterproof at a kitcheck as it still passes the test, the seams aren't sealed but are waterproof, I used to be on a test team and used Paramo when it first came out in the late 80's?( I have some shocking pics of me on top of Mont Blanc in a 2 piece Brick red combo) It's Good stuff but maybe a bit heavy for running though. I was managing a shop in Leeds at the time and Leeds Uni did alot of testing on waterproof fabric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
Where a water proof uses a barrier method you do need a sealed seam. Goretex, PU proofed nylon, Cascade, Hydro Dry, Sympatex, etc Paramo uses a different system of pushing the water away from the face fabric
I carry and run in the Inov8 Mistlite jacket and bottoms and have found them to be excellent, however I notice they dont have taped seams but are recomended as being FRA approved, would these be turned down under certain circumstances or at certain races ?
Murph
Hi Murph! I'm afraid they would be if a RO stipulated waterproof body cover with taped seams. Windproof and they're fine. If you don't want to spend ££££ on an expensive set a pair of Regatta mac and pac trousers and jacket will do. I've got a nice jacket a Montane Atomic, which I only run in if it's filthy and a pair of regatta trousers I've never ran in. Remember you'll rarely run in waterproofs and in reality you carry them in case you have to stop/walk in bad weather to stop you dying of hypothermia.
I've got a montane marathon jacket and would highly recommend it. Brilliant lightweight piece of kit
Back to Pertex..
Anyone tested OMM Sonic Smock?
http://www.theomm.com/products?page=...category_id=10
But what about breathability? - after all being waterproof is easy - take your average garbage bag ..... it is my understanding that Goretex scores poorly in this area, and is a good example of a product whose marketing is superior to its performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Good one Mike!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Interesting the more technical the jacket, eg extra panels, lots of colours, lots of pockets, means more taped area's which mean less breathable. But yes a mesh top would be 100% breathable where as a PVC mac is zero
Breatherbility is measured in MVTR (moisture vapour transmission rate)
Where breathabilty get really complicated is there are lots of factors which can effect this. The jacket being wet(on the surface) is not one of them! although a wet jacket will feel colder and heavier.
Breathabilty works by relative humidity, the inside having a higher humidity to the outside, the higher differential the better the breathabilty works, So if you open your pit zips, ventilate your jacket you are actually slowing down the breathabilty. if you were to go to a tropical rain forrest the moisture could actually go the other way!!! What you wear under said jacket is also important.
There are so many variables that to unless you try each jacket personally you'll never know which is the best jacket for you.
Here are some graphs for different fabrics and their relative breathability
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/...athability.pdf
expanded PTFE is basic gortex before it is bonded to a face fabric.
But on one thing you are dead right, Gore has a fantastic marketing dept, as has Salomon in the 70's Rear entry ski boots??? what was that all about shakes head
Yes I got one for Christmas and it's a great no frills light weight Pertex top, I run it all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by swedentrails
There is no such thing as FRA approved kit. The Mistlite jacket and bottoms meet the basic FRA requirement for windproof body cover but are no more FRA approved than the dozens of other windproof jackets and bottoms available from other manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by murph
Ok, mis-quote on my behalf "designed to meet the UK Fell Running Association racing rules"
Think ill look to invest in the Montane Atomic in the near future then, I have some other items of theirs which have lasted ages :)
Thanks Stumpy for the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by stumpy
If you buy a limited edition version of one of their jackets from their website half goes to mountain rescue I think. I can definitely recommend the atomic stretch it's a lovely jacket.Quote:
Originally Posted by murph
IN that case i´m getting one soon. Is it true to size or small..? Can´t test it cause we got no retailers in Sweden..Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan
I'm fairly small, about 5ft9ish and thin, but I wear a medium. There's a bit of room, but I find that more comfortable especially over a Helly. They're pretty breathable I wore mine whilst running hill reps last night with no problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by swedentrails
Regardless of all the technicalities and talk about hydrostatic head tests and the "definition" of waterproof... Talk of waterproof is MEANINGLESS in a fellrunning context (and it's about time some race organisers acknowledged it). You can't stay dry running on a dry day because of the amount of moisture the human body itself produces so how can you expect to stay dry on a wet day...????!
It makes NO DIFFERENCE to your comfort or safety whether your kit is waterproof or not. It's windproofing that is most imprortant, with breathability a close second because a breathable fabric will dry out to some extent when the rain stops or your level of activity drops.
A better phrase tio use in kit requirements would be "adequate weather protection". This would be at the organisers discretion (as it always is anyway) and the organiser should be qualified to judge.. if not why is he carrying out kit checks...?
A good quality Pertex, plus adequate insulation layer is the best you can do for running purposes. I have a Marmot Pertex with a fleece lining and that would always be my first choice for cold or wet conditions, and a super lightweight Ron Hill pertex which serves for less extreme conditions.
My "waterproof" top invariably stays in my bum bag just to satisfy often half-baked kit requirements... :rolleyes:
I must disagree with the second paragraph - in anything more than very light rain I fairly quickly get wet/cold/miserable in my Montane Pertex smock, whereas I am comfortable for much longer in my Haglofs Oz. The Montane would always be my first choice if it was dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellhound
Windproof is perfectly adequate when moving even in pretty poor conditions (except full winter), I've used my Montane featherlite running the three peaks in a hailstorm and been fine. However, it is pretty useless if you have to stop due to injury. I reckon a minor injury where you could walk off the hill would probably be ok (although you'd be chilly) but something that immobilised you for any length of time would require a more substantial piece of kit, I would have thought in this case a waterproof (whilst not very breathable) would keep the heat in better.
or more to the point will keep the wet out longer, this along with wind being the biggest contributory factor to Hypothermia. If you had a dry top under a waterproof you would last alot longer than with just a windproof in any amount of precipitation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Furness