Printable View
I slightly hyperextended my knee at Christmas and haven't been able to run since although I can cycle and walk with no problems. I've had my specialist appointment today and he suggests keyhole surgery although on examination he could not say what I had done. I know that xrays show the knee to be in good condition. Anyone had this done and had a successful outcome?
Soooo... youve been recommended to go for keyhole surgery, but they don't know what they are actually going to do once they open you up.... (or go in... whatever the term is)...
really?
Yes. The Consultant seems a fine fellow. He said ' it will not get better'.Quote:
Originally Posted by zephr
I would get a second opinion... from a doc as well as a good physio...
And the MRI scan shows ......
Presumably you've had x-rays and a MRI and these are unconclusive? I would definitely get a second opinion before you decide.....
I had some problems about 20 years ago and had arthroscopies on both knees 20 years ago, and although there was some initial discomfort they settled down and were OK very soon after. However, I had further problems about 5 years ago and the first consultant I spoke to then told me to stop running (!) whereas a second opinion from the ROH advised physio and definitely to keep active. You can probably guess which advice I went with!
I had non conclusive x-rays and MRI on my right knee, after tearing my medial meniscus... the consultant wanted to go in... as, his words, it is a minor routine operation and I think I will find something like this: queue photo's from arthroscopy from another patient with non conclusive imagery and a HUGE tear in the cartilige...
In the end, a physio friend of mine gave me exercises, and taught me how to tape it up. Another friend, also a doctor but no orthopaedic specialist said: at your age, you will wear the ragged edges in with a couple of seasons of bike racing...
So far so good. It niggles at me from time to time, I tape it up for races and hard efforts and all has been well. However, I don't run so not sure how that would work. Did a fair bit of running with the bike at Three Peaks Cyclocross though last year, without ill effects...
2nd opinion, from a physio! The body is a lovely sealed unit, don't open it up when you don't have to?
In my day job, I'm a GP.
I advocate a VERY conservative approach to orthopaedic surgery, because (1)most people fail to realise that a lot of orthopaedic surgery at this level involves taking stuff out you can never put back and (2) the natural history of these type of injuries is that they mostly do get better eventually.
Also, after an arthroscopy +/- trimming/ fiddling you may not be able to run etc(and certainly not for several weeks or months initially)
Another vote for physio, with exercise modification(not cessation!)
Anecdotally, a lot of cartilage injuries do 'wear smooth again'. Even complete tears of ACL etc are not incompatible with sport
I'm with Dr Morris on this. I had an ankle arthroscopy in 1995 to remove a bit of floating bone. The op was presented as a minor 'tidy up'. When I came to after anaesthetic and asked how soon I could start running again I was shocked to be told "Maybe never - we had to take a lot of stuff away."
It took two years before I could run at all and I never regained anything like the same standard of performance. The ankle still has restricted movement and hurts.
On the good side, at least I'm still able to run (after a fashion); I have no way of knowing if the arthroscopy made this possible or whether the problem it sorted out would have self rectified in any case over time.
Hear Hear Dr Morris! :)
I tore my ATF ligament (in the ankle) clean off during the OMM in 2008... was told I would never run again, but after a year of cycling and gentle rehab, I was able to run again... Other bits of the ankle and lower leg have taken over the function of that particular ligament and although slightly unstable, the ankle now works fine again :)
Yep. there we go.
Really go for a 2nd opinion, especially if they can't actually specify what is wrong with the knee.
Just because surgery is an option doesn't mean it is a good one- it should be a last, worst option should everything else fail in the very long term. Once you take something away, it can no longer have the possibility of healing, because it ain't there.
Well, thanks for all the comments and pms. I ended up getting a last minute appointment and so had to make a snap decision.
I'd not run for weeks and decided to go for a gentle flat road jog to see if it was any better- it was worse I only managed about half a mile! So under the knife I went. It already feels better walking about and It is only two days ago I had it done. I had torn the Meniscus. The consultant said he trimmed it and the back of the kneecap. He said I had a bit of wear and tear 1-2 out of a 4 point scale, commenting that it was remarkably little considering my age 53 and the activities I engage in. I will let you know how it all turns out which may help others in my dilemma in future.
Sounds like a good result, though clearly it is early days. Can you clarify whether or not you had a MRI scan - it sounds like you didn't - the thinking seems to have been "I need to see what is going on inside this knee, no matter what a MRI scan shows". Sometimes scans are done because they can be done, not because they are needed. Good luck, take it easy for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Porter
Hi Mike, I didn't it was all very quick. Saw the specialist on the Thursday and was offered an arthroscopy on the following Wednesday. So I reckoned if I was going to do it get on with it. I read the advice and was 50/50 but the jog said to me "this is getting worse not better" Also a couple of people (very experienced vets) were on balance for it so.... I knew it was a risk but I'm 53 I need to get back at it or say goodbye and become a mountain biker. (I've put 10 pounds on since I injured it and feel like I've lost almost all my fitness)
Mark
Just for the benefit of anyone considering this. I did it and was in for 39 minutes which is apparently quite long so he must have done a fair bit. I'm back running (if you can call 3 miles running) The main problem is the 10 pounds I've put on! It still is a bit uncomfortable. I realise now that my OP was a stupid question because no two ops will be the same.
The best bit of advice I got by PM was to get back at it as soon as possible- so true. If I'd struggled on with physio hoping it would slowly get better for a year or so I don't think I would have started again. At 53 with just 5 month off it is pretty tough as it is and i look back at stuff like the Three Shires and Langdale a year ago and can't even imagine being that fit again. (you can see the difference in muscle size and I never stopped being active) At the time I thought I was an unfit bloater! I'm taking it slowly with the target of matching my average time for Nine Standards on New Years Day.
Glad to hear that you are back on your feet. Good luck with the rebuilding of the running!
well about 4 months after the meniscus repair I'm up to 20 miles a week and the knee is still improving. The reason for the post is a word of warning. Even though there is little pain you sub-consciously favour your other leg. I've just had a near miss after running down a bit of the West Highland Way at near race pace. The next day I hurt so much in my 'good leg' that I thought 'I've torn that one now!' However three rest days later and it feels OK so I'm hoping I have got away with it. I'm going to lay off for the rest of the week.
I could quote all of the above posts. I've been struggling with an increasingly persistent knee injury for the last 18 months. It's annoyed me. My wife has become irritated by my impatience to get out running again. I've been frustrated by the fact that when I start running again, it still hurts. I switch obsessively to the bike, but soon find that despite the effort I seem to be putting on weight. This last point upsets me because I'm losing my thin body that is increasingly hard to maintain at the age of 45.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Porter
Went to see my GP for results of knee x-ray today. I already know I've got damaged ligaments but was surprised by news that I've got start of osteoarthritis. I have a great GP who also runs and his advice is that you should keep moving, because once the surgeons start trimming bits of cartliage or washing out the knee there's no going back. It might work, but it might not. Risk worth taking? After all cartlaige (how do you spell this!) is a shock absorber. Once it's gone.....
Take care, typically I am the last to listen to my own advice. The Op knee is great but the other is in real trouble following a 50% increase in mileage in one week and belting down the west highland way while 10 pounds overweight!
It doesn't feel like a tear as there is no clicking or popping but it is really enflamed so much so that a mile or so brisk walk yesterday left it so painful it was difficult to sleep. If I get away with this one I am going to be a very good boy.
Having today been to see a consultant about my right knee, I find myself revisiting this thread.
I've not been able to run since June. I've suspected the injury is a medial meniscus tear, and the consultant thought so too.
He wants to do an MRI scan first, but if that confirms his diagnosis he is very upbeat about surgery being the best option, and one with a very high probability of success. He says it's rare for this type of injury to self-heal. I told him about my experience of ankle arthroscopy twenty years ago but he reassured me that the knee operation is usually more straightforward and the recovery time is much quicker. In fact, he told me that one of his patients was back running after just three days! I'd rather like to believe this, particularly as, like Henry Porter in days of yore, I've piled on the pounds to the extent that I've had to buy larger trousers....
I know Dylan has had recent experience of similar knee surgery. Anyone else?
BTW, my X-rays showed the joint itself to be in good condition, and I don't normally suffer from knee problems. This is a very specific pain at a precise point and I have full mobility with no swelling or ligament damage.
Incredible!
I am also revisiting this thread, as my old meniscal tear that was left unoperated on has strated to trouble me again after years of laying low. It has been suggested to have the joint tidied up at last, however, my consultant has since retired...
I am toying between getting myself on the NHS waiting list or roughing and toughing it out and keep using the knee through the pain and swelling... Swelling seems to go up and down like a yoyo and I haven't ridden my bike for a month now :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tussockface
It probably is possible to keep things going for a while. I first had a problem with my knee last year and managed to get through without surgery. In your words I 'roughed and toughed' it out. This appeared to be successful in that it resulted in 6 months of decent running. However, it wasn't really 'sorted' and the problem has recurred.
My MRI scan is in a week or so and I'll post updates!
Anyhow, long-time-no-see, Hanneke. I don't think I've seen you about since a race in the Lakes many years ago. Hope you manage to sort out your injury and get back cycling soon.
Yeah, it has been a very long time Tussockface... I can't remember when I last ran properly, but I converted to cycling in 2009...
I have decided to try bedding the knee back in so went for an experimental half hour bike ride, spinning. I found I can't put any power down, can't ride out of the saddle and unclipping was 'intense'...
I am also going to pay a visit to the doctor to get the ball rolling again for a possible op. The process will take at least a year but I can always not go ahead with it if I have sorted things in other ways again.
I hope your MRI shows something useful!
Gents,
I've had 3 arthroscopies
Left Knee
- 1. to remove a loose lump of surfave cartlidge/ bone which had disloged.
- 2. to remove scar tissue that had grown up over a number of years fromt he original damage
Right Knee.
- 3 - tidy up of a meniscal tear (this was done early 2010)
In my opinion each one of these has been worthwhile and successful. I would recommend you get things sorted out and surgery had definitely worked wel for me.
I've also been lucky in getting my operations quickly which meant I was fitter going in and not so much ground to make up after wards. I played the "athlete lifestyle" card - i.e. If you can do it sooner it will make such adifference for me. Plus asked to go on the "replacement list" Whereby you say you are happy to get the op at short notice if someone cancels for some reason.
Always had things done within 2 or 3 months this way.
the more you can ham up the problem the better for prompt action
My MRI scan confirmed suspicions of a medial meniscal tear. The consultant was good in talking me through the images, and even I was able to see the small flap of cartilage that's causing the problem.
He (Mr Thomas) reckoned the chance of complete success is about 90%, with only a 1% possibility that it would make matters worse.
Seems a decent punt at those odds, so I've signed up for the operation. There's a 3 month waiting list though, unless I can try Andy's trick and nip in on a cancellation.
I had two knee arthriscopies quite a number of years ago. For me the surgeries meant I could get active again. The biggest problem for me had been the two years it took the NHS to agree that physio wasn't working and it wouldn't just sort itself out. In that time I lost fitness and muscle tone to the point that it was incredibly difficult to get it back. Sometimes it's best not to soldier on but to get it sorted. Was never offered an MRI by the way. Increasingly disillusioned with my local hospital.
Good luck anyone needing the op but if it ain't fixing then get it fixed! 😉
Some years ago I had an NHS arthroscopy to remove some lose material in the knee joint and had no problems since. Even if it is not initially completely clear what the problem is, the fact that a camera goes in first helps a lot. Go ahead with it Hanneke!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanneke
My left hand was fractured during my childhood. I went to doctor for the treatment . After proper medication, I became recover my weakness. Now I am ok.
A few years ago I got a cartilage tear in my knee and had a date for the surgery .
My consultant said to me ' you don't have to go through with this,change your lifestyle,stop running'.
I cancelled the op and started cycling and it got better so I risked running again and kept sound I never got the knee pain again.I have other issues but the knee pain never returned so that proves things can settle down in some cases but certainly not all of them ,I would think some would never ever come right without surgery and if it did'nt you would have wished you're had it done and not wasted the time.Good luck.
Tore cartilage in knee last year and damaged medial ligament.
Physio discussed surgery but got that whole "no one can promise you it'll work out fine" warning, so stuck with physio. The knee wasn't clicking or locking, which she said would really mean surgery as the tear had formed a flap. Didn't go near a consultant.
Was doing 20km runs 2 months later, and after 3 or 4 months I didn't even notice it. I am more conscious when hurdling or jumping rocks, but that's just natural caution kicking in and saying I'm not infallible.