Style and BG Club Membership

I found the debate in the Thread about the latest Cuillin Traverse Record interesting in that top roping isn't allowed in the rules, but of course top roping in climbing has always been viewed as cheating, and there are a number of climbs on the Traverse, all though these are all relatively easy.

Some people who chose to do the Broadstand route on the BG Round also use a top rope, though of course they could always run around via Foxes Tarn... I wonder whether Bob Graham used a top rope on his Round? If he didn't then perhaps they should be banned on "Gold Standard" BG Rounds, as it is a poorer style than he used.

I do think that it is odd that the BG Club allows the use of top ropes but doesn't recognise solo ascents, which presumably is to do with people believing you actually did it - which is a shame as clearly they are in better style. I think genuinely solo rounds (not that mine was) should be a point of celebration, very much a point of note (perhaps they can't be counted as points towards the UTMB) but as stated I think they should be celebrated at the Club Dinner; and why not allow the lady who I hear recently battled for 26 hrs in poor weather to complete her Round get an Honorary Bad Weather membership, much more impressive than my own dawn to dusk Round...

My view would be to be more inclusive, but certainly not to exclude solo Rounds.

Cheers,

I used a rope on Broad Stand. Bob Graham almost certainly didn't - there's no definitive record either way. Some earlier (than Graham's) rounds used alpenstocks.

Solo rounds: if people don't believe you did it then it can't be better style. As a club we get asked some very odd questions about the round, asking for witnesses to a round does act as a gateway to some if not all of the wackier ideas. There's nothing to stop anyone doing a solo round and then doing a witnessed round should they desire to be a club member.

Rounds taking longer than 24hrs: I refer my honourable friend to the title at the top of this page on the Club's web site: http://www.bobgrahamclub.co.uk/index.php?page=home . I know of quite a few attempts that completed in more than 24hrs but these were before the interweb so you only found out about them if you were involved or knew the contender.

UTMB: the name of successful completers for the current year and the previous year is sent to the organisers each year.

Is there a genuine desire to reduce the current limited number of entry requirements?

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Originally Posted by Bob

...... Is there a genuine desire to reduce the current limited number of entry requirements?

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I can't imagine that this would be case Bob and I suspect the bulk of fellrunners with any affinity for the BGR would agree.

My two pennorth..
I personally can't see a problem with top roping Broad Stand in the context of a BGR, after all it's only a few moves which isn't very much in the grand scheme of things, and the aspirant still has to actually climb. However I heard of a team using a caving ladder to overcome BS during a BGR recently which I think is pushing the limits of acceptability.

The Cuillin Ridge record is an entirely different kettle of fish and (as someone on the other thread pointed out) is more of climbing/mountaineering challenge than running. There is significantly greater scope for a rope from above to influence the overall time and most climbers would naturally move much faster on a top rope than soloing/leading. Bear in mind that these rules only apply to those attempting the record which can't be more than a handfull of people per decade. Anyone wanting to claim a traverse of the ridge, as far as I know can use whatever means they see fit.

Anyway that's just my opinion.

"There's nothing to stop anyone doing a solo round and then doing a witnessed round should they desire to be a club member." - Bob, this is my point, if you have done an awesome solo round, you should get a loud round of applause at The Dinner - you dont need to do it again with witnesses to "tick the boxes", how crazy would that be? As you know in climbing, people trust ascentionists accounts of what they do - and the few that fabricate stories are typically found out quickly and the individuals and stories discredited - I beleive this self regulation works very effectively.

One of my Scottish mates did the BG on-sight and unsupported, to me it diminishes the Club not to count such inspirational efforts. Neither the Paddy or Ramsay Round "lists" require verification (which is a problem for soloists) - but are they filled with people who have made-up their Rounds?

Cheers, S

I agree Simon in that a solo round is in some ways more of an accomplishment and the next step up in terms of mental strength but if your of the mind set to do a solo round then I wouldn't think youd be bothered about a round of applause, surely a quiet private affair is why yougo solo? And as for the bg club, then the rules are clear and few so it's a case if like it or lump id say. Although I can see your point the bg club has a tradition now and to start changing it in major ways would take something away from it i feel. If you wanted recognition theres plenty of media to gain that this forum facebook etc but if your going solo I doubt this is what it would be about for you.

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One of my Scottish mates did the BG on-sight and unsupported, to me it diminishes the Club not to count such inspirational efforts. Neither the Paddy or Ramsay Round "lists" require verification (which is a problem for soloists) - but are they filled with people who have made-up their Rounds?

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How would you know? There could be some.

So far I'd doubt there's many fibbers with the CRR or PBR. But the numbers involved with the BGR do seem to increase the possibility of a fraudulent claim of sub 24hr success. It's already happened iirc!?

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but if your of the mind set to do a solo round then I wouldn't think youd be bothered about a round of applause

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Well said

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Originally Posted by shaunaneto

How would you know? There could be some.

So far I'd doubt there's many fibbers with the CRR or PBR. But the numbers involved with the BGR do seem to increase the possibility of a fraudulent claim of sub 24hr success. It's already happened iirc!?

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There was a case a few years ago (maybe ten or more) when someone, who had claimed a ratified round, admitted to Fred Rogerson that they'd not actually done it. I think that the individual then did complete a ratified round. I've no idea who it was as it was well before my time.

The BGR is by far the best known of the UK 24hr challenges and as such attracts a lot of attention. The Paddy Buckley Round is slightly different in that Paddy himself doesn't specify a 24hr limit and the list includes several individuals who completed the round in 27 or 28 hours. It's only in recent years that the fell running community has decided that the 24hr limit should apply, certainly I've not heard of a summer "success" in recent years finishing in over 24hrs - John Fleetwood's winter round is one exception.

Simon, you are conflating two issues: recognition of solo rounds and club membership. As has been said on this thread and others, if you set off on a solo round you are likely to be doing it for yourself and either are already a club member or have no desire to be one. Club membership is simple - do a witnessed round.

Andy Hyslop set up "the rules" for the Cuillin Ridge traverse because he couldn't determine what the then record holder, Eric Beard, had done. He aimed to keep things as simple as possible so that future record contenders knew what had been done and what they had to do. The "rules" for BGR club membership are similarly simple and aim to strike a balance between lightweight and safety.

Flippant comment ahoy! :)

A solo round is much easier in some respects - you can go at the drop of a hat and ensure fine weather, there are minimal logistics to get bogged down with and you can buy in the navigation with a decent gps. And any mistakes will be your own.

Stolly,

You are right that a solo BG wouldn't be that hard to organise with plenty of Road crossings, I did much of the Paddy solo for the reasons you outline, though as the weather crapped out and night descended I really needed the support (I got) on the last leg.

Solo Ramsay's are different, as there is only one easy access point, you either need to carry a vast amount of food or put down some food drops which is a big logistically effort, I am in the process of doing this! And I would like to have some support on the final section, as when you are tired the emotional support of another person makes a big difference to me.

Maybe The Question should have been what do people want the Club to be? Without access to the stats, how many people just see the BG as a challenge to "tick off" then move on, rather than it being more of a community where people continue to have a special relationship with the Round and help others "on the shoulders of giants" to achieve something amazing; I think soloists probably end up having more of a "relationship" with the Round than many who "tick the boxes" (and move onto the next big goal); maybe The Club should have a questionnaire? Organisations that dont evolve typically become irrelevant at an earlier point, so defending BG Club tradition may not be in the Clubs best interest.

Cheers,

That's a different question. If you have any suggestions then come along to the AGM in July (see the thread I started about it) and make your case.

I would say that most who attempt the round feel part of a community: strangers have come to my aid and I've helped out on strangers' rounds and I know many who've done the same. The club is a very loose collection of individuals and certainly not like a normal running club. Obviously some move on - if you did the round thirty years ago, is it still an active part of your life?

A questionnaire? It's easy to think that in these days everyone has email so it's just a matter of doing a mass email to get people's views but we don't have email addresses for maybe 80% of members so it would have to be by post with associated costs. And what would you ask - questionnaires are exceedingly hard to get right without, even unintentional, leading questions.

[ but of course top roping in climbing has always been viewed as cheating, )

Simon. I am not sure where you got this premise from? Top roping has and even more so in recent years been a generally accepted way of working a route prior to a clean ground up lead. Look at many of the recent grit stone horrors and also the hours of work sport climbers put into working a route prior to a red point at what ever grade they climb. God, I should know having worked Mecca Extension at The Tor for so many years! I do agree that it kind of brings a route down to a 'new' level of managing risk, and I do agree that any ground up, on site ascent is in many ways a more formidable achievement.
As for Broad Stand and The BG. It shouldn't really matter that much nor should it on the Inn Pin or any other obstacle encountered on a run/endure challenge. I say that because I think the challenge is more about the whole event and getting round as fast as possible, rather than the purity of the climbing for those very short sections.

Bob,

It is a different question, but probably the more important one as the views of the broader Club membership are the most important, my views are just personal thoughts...

I had a quick look at your AGM thread, and can't make the 21st as I would like to have come along, I will PM you my considered thoughts...

But whilst I think the Club should embrace change, I for one am very grateful for what it does and has done for me, both an excellent Dinner, and the points towards the UTMB, and The Round itself has a fairly unique spot in my life... and I still dream of my own extension taking in the Southern Lakes fells, and I am thinking that to do a loop taking in Coniston Old Man, Dow, Harter Fell would be hard for me to do in under 24 ;-) !

But we dont do things because they are easy.... I love the JFK quote, "we will go to the Moon, we will go to the Moon in this decade..."

Cheers,

Corniceman,

Dont take me word for word, but you make my point better than me, "Top roping has and even more so in recent years been a generally accepted way of working a route prior to a clean ground up lead" i.e. the top rope ascent isn't valid, it needs to be completed with a clean lead or solo...

As Bob Wightman points out Bob Graham himself didn't use a top rope, so using one if you take a very traditional approach is a step back in terms of style - I personally think it is odd that the Club does not count solo attempts but top ropes are OK; however, I am suggesting to Bob that it is discussed at the AGM, unfortunately I cant be there due to family holiday commitments.

Cheers,

Don't get the point of this thread.
The BG Club doesn't own the 'rights', the name, the route, the land etc., which compose the BG round.
It exists for its own purposes, among which are a great day out in the Lakes, camaraderie, raising money for charity.
It has some arbitrary rules. If they choose to exclude solo rounds, rounds over 24 hours, or anything else from membership - so what?
Or is it the case that this upsets devotees of the 'tick box' culture, who misguidedly believe that the club IS the BG round, and are in a hurry to move onto the next '10 things to do before....'.

Dumb question but by 'top roping', which is presumably climbing jargon, we're just talking about roping that dodgy bit of Broad Stand (and we're not talking about roping both the top and the bottom :) )

Surely we're only talking about plus or minus 15 minutes here and a couple of hundred feet of climb. In my case this Saturday, we're planning to descend BS with a rope (undoubtedly in the wet) and I'm just hoping to survive and not 'lose' too much time going this way. Jesus the weather being good or bad can make an hour's difference on its own, wearing fell shoes rather than plimsoles will make for an advantage, using a gps will, heck even using a map and compass will. Its kind of a mute point if you ask me maikng such a big thing of what is such a small part of the round

Stolly and The Grump,

The thought was triggered by The Cuillen Traverse "rules" in the latest record Thread, which are purist (but possibly not accepted as The Rules)... and as a climber I have some resonance with the view that top roping isn't good form... also I suspected (which Bob W concurs with) that Bob Graham didn't use a top rope... but it was really this "non purist" practice being viewed as acceptable but solo rounds not being acceptable to "The Club" that led me posting the thread... I dont actually care about whether people top rope Broadstand though I would like to see solo rounds being accepted and celebrated by The Club - but that is for the Club to decide and something I will raise via Bob. I would also like to see more honorary memberships given out for particularly gritty performances so that those Rounds can be viewed as bigger successes than they typically are - though I think there would be less support for this idea, but it could go to someone who has just supported loads of people and never completed as was the case with Fred I think. Cheers,

Honorary/associate memberships tend to be handed out to those who've done a lot of supporting work over several or many years. There's a total of 17 so far. One of those, Andrew Chamings did actually complete a round over ten days. Andrew is paraplegic following a spinal injury.

How do you define "gritty"? Two years ago on "Fred's Round" during one of the worst day's weather I have seen in the Lakes, and I've seen a few, two contenders got round in under 24hrs. I was glad to only have been up on the tops for a couple of hours. For me, humid conditions are a nightmare so should rounds in those conditions, successful or not be considered worthy for honorary membership? I struggled supporting just one leg on a hot day.

The Grump has it pretty well spot on: simple rules for a special endeavour.

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Originally Posted by simon cox

Corniceman,

Dont take me word for word, but you make my point better than me, "Top roping has and even more so in recent years been a generally accepted way of working a route prior to a clean ground up lead" i.e. the top rope ascent isn't valid, it needs to be completed with a clean lead or solo...

As Bob Wightman points out Bob Graham himself didn't use a top rope, so using one if you take a very traditional approach is a step back in terms of style - I personally think it is odd that the Club does not count solo attempts but top ropes are OK; however, I am suggesting to Bob that it is discussed at the AGM, unfortunately I cant be there due to family holiday commitments.

Cheers,

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Simon. Yes you make a really good point there re top roping validity. I am glad that I didn't use a rope as I don't want my ascent of the BGR invalidated or put to a second string attempt for not going round clean!!
Really interested in your extended round. I am 55 next year and thinking of a 55 at 55 round and wondering what peaks to add. A must for me are summits in the Grasmore group in addition to Pavey Ark etc. I had never thought about going further South and will get a map out tonight. It looks like a huge ask though to include those peaks you list and still tie it in with the other 42 within 24 hours.

This is just a very spurious argument to try and support the contention that the BG club should recognise solo rounds.
The BG is a running challenge, not a climbing challenge.
Cullins I think are fundamentally different and are a combination.
Simon, I'm amused by the way you have translated Bob's reply that actually no-body knows definitively whether Bob Graham did Broad Stand top roaped or not into - "he did it solo".
If we assume he did solo it then in 1938 you can bet he solo-ed good rock, not the polished rock we have now.
BS is not difficult, but it is dangerously exposed should you slip - and slipping is more likely these days due to the polished rock.
Top roping BS is about protection.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

Dumb question but by 'top roping', which is presumably climbing jargon, we're just talking about roping that dodgy bit of Broad Stand (and we're not talking about roping both the top and the bottom :) )

Surely we're only talking about plus or minus 15 minutes here and a couple of hundred feet of climb. In my case this Saturday, we're planning to descend BS with a rope (undoubtedly in the wet) and I'm just hoping to survive and not 'lose' too much time going this way. Jesus the weather being good or bad can make an hour's difference on its own, wearing fell shoes rather than plimsoles will make for an advantage, using a gps will, heck even using a map and compass will. Its kind of a mute point if you ask me maikng such a big thing of what is such a small part of the round

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In 2011 I descended BS in wet conditions on an anti-clock. One of the supporters who dislikes exposure chose Foxes (much slower than WWT) and he stood waiting for 5 mins whilst we struggled down.
I haven't read the latter parts of this thread but I ran my c/w BG route solo for 75% in 18.50. Very little organisation, little stress etc. A small number of people reminded me that I was "not official" and whilst I respect the BG club. Egos can spoil the party. I became "official" two years ago with an a/clock. Ironically, taking 18.51 with perhaps too much support. Broad Stand may save just 5 mins against WWT and perhaps 10 m on Foxes and in the context of a day out in the fells is so minute, that it is hardly worth mentioning.
Besides STYLE should be measured in the amount of pleasure generated from the exercise.

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Originally Posted by alf.t

Besides STYLE should be measured in the amount of pleasure generated from the exercise

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Absolutely. Which direction you go, a few inconsequential route choices, how many pals (if any) you choice to spend your day with etc are just 'background noise'. The question has to be, 'did you enjoy it?'

Corniceman, I come from the South Lakes + my Dads ashes are on Coniston OM so the South Lakes extension including quite a bit of the Duddon Fell Race works for me personally. I would rather do a logical extension than a few extra lumps just to make up an arbitrary number - I am 52 next year - also 24 hours becomes less important when u go for an aesthetic line.... I think the Lakes probably holds one of the Ultimate Ultra mountain challenge - the 100 highest Wainwrights in a single push... Though doing all the Classic Rock Climbs in the Lakes in 24 hrs is also a Beast - I think only one person has done that, no top roping on that challenge of course;-) S

100 highest Wainwrights looks a great quiz question for when you're suffering up Fairfield. The 24 hours thing is an interesting point. I'm 50 next year

Andy,

My argument is probably less spurious to a climber where solo is the purist of styles and top roping a rather dodgy practice.... But I have too much time on my hands at present and do need to stop faffing around on here with rather silly arguments. But my assumption is Bob G on his Round just slipped up the West Window or nipped round Foxes tarn rather than hailing for a handy top rope! However I think your argument that as the Cuillins are a mountain challenge this makes a solo rule more appropriate is the more spurious argument ;-) surely on a running challenge u should be running and not using ropes but on a mountain challenge ropes are fine? Fingers crossed i get gainfully employed on Friday. Cheers, S

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Originally Posted by andy k

This is just a very spurious argument to try and support the contention that the BG club should recognise solo rounds.
The BG is a running challenge, not a climbing challenge.
Cullins I think are fundamentally different and are a combination.
Simon, I'm amused by the way you have translated Bob's reply that actually no-body knows definitively whether Bob Graham did Broad Stand top roaped or not into - "he did it solo".
If we assume he did solo it then in 1938 you can bet he solo-ed good rock, not the polished rock we have now.
BS is not difficult, but it is dangerously exposed should you slip - and slipping is more likely these days due to the polished rock.
Top roping BS is about protection.

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Alfie whilst enjoying life is of up most importance this is different to style... I like the quote "run if u can, walk if you have to crawl if u must - just never give up" whilst crawling is impressively tenacious it isnt good style or probably for that matter enjoyable. Happy days, S

DT, do u take the Coffa Pike route up Fairfield? I am a recent convert thinking it much more enjoyable than the screey thrash! Cheers, S

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Originally Posted by simon cox

DT, do u take the Coffa Pike route up Fairfield? I am a recent convert thinking it much more enjoyable than the screey thrash! Cheers, S

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I've only been the Cofa Pike way once with our mutual friend IanDarkpeak and it was dark and a pretty foul night. Must have another look at it. The screes aren't a lot of fun

DT, I did it a few weeks ago with the sun setting over Grisedale Tarn but with the sun "burning" in the water, no one else on the hill, totally awesome - Ian's write up of the line is pretty good - stick with the lower section, as soon as you hit the path breaking left it is bliss and take the final rocky nose direct to the summit... enjoy! S

During Stef's recent BG while she and the support crew went round Grisedale tarn, I, following some distance behind and low on water, took the direct route past the outflow of the tarn. The climb to Fairfield is steep that way but there are some first class water springs there. I prefer that route.

Going anti-clockwise the Cofa Pike descent from Fairfield is absolutely brilliant with a not at all bad climb up Dollywaggon to follow

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6896/zbe6.jpg

Is that the route we are going on Saturday?

ATB

Tahr

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Is that the route we are going on Saturday?

ATB

Tahr

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Yep :)

You all sorted Stolly for the weekend ? I am free and thinking of spending a long wet day on the hills.

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Originally Posted by Adnan Khan

You all sorted Stolly for the weekend ? I am free and thinking of spending a long wet day on the hills.

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Feel free to join in the fun Adnan. We're sorted but another runner shouldn't do any harm. We're running anti-clockwise starting at Moot Hall at 9 am on Saturday, reaching Honister at something like 11:35, Wasdale at 4:20, Dunmail at 11 and Threlkeld at 3:30

Mott Hall? Not very stylish:wink:
Best of Luck Stolly:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by stevefoster

Mott Hall? Not very stylish:wink:
Best of Luck Stolly:thumbup:

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A moot point :)

So the big question is, does a Dark Peak caravan round count?

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Originally Posted by No map, no compass

So the big question is, does a Dark Peak caravan round count?

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Why ever not? :confused: