Style and BG Club Membership

[simon cox]

I found the debate in the Thread about the latest Cuillin Traverse Record interesting in that top roping isn't allowed in the rules, but of course top roping in climbing has always been viewed as cheating, and there are a number of climbs on the Traverse, all though these are all relatively easy.

Some people who chose to do the Broadstand route on the BG Round also use a top rope, though of course they could always run around via Foxes Tarn... I wonder whether Bob Graham used a top rope on his Round? If he didn't then perhaps they should be banned on "Gold Standard" BG Rounds, as it is a poorer style than he used.

I do think that it is odd that the BG Club allows the use of top ropes but doesn't recognise solo ascents, which presumably is to do with people believing you actually did it - which is a shame as clearly they are in better style. I think genuinely solo rounds (not that mine was) should be a point of celebration, very much a point of note (perhaps they can't be counted as points towards the UTMB) but as stated I think they should be celebrated at the Club Dinner; and why not allow the lady who I hear recently battled for 26 hrs in poor weather to complete her Round get an Honorary Bad Weather membership, much more impressive than my own dawn to dusk Round...

My view would be to be more inclusive, but certainly not to exclude solo Rounds.

Cheers,

[Bob]

I used a rope on Broad Stand. Bob Graham almost certainly didn't - there's no definitive record either way. Some earlier (than Graham's) rounds used alpenstocks.

Solo rounds: if people don't believe you did it then it can't be better style. As a club we get asked some very odd questions about the round, asking for witnesses to a round does act as a gateway to some if not all of the wackier ideas. There's nothing to stop anyone doing a solo round and then doing a witnessed round should they desire to be a club member.

Rounds taking longer than 24hrs: I refer my honourable friend to the title at the top of this page on the Club's web site: http://www.bobgrahamclub.co.uk/index.php?page=home . I know of quite a few attempts that completed in more than 24hrs but these were before the interweb so you only found out about them if you were involved or knew the contender.

UTMB: the name of successful completers for the current year and the previous year is sent to the organisers each year.

Is there a genuine desire to reduce the current limited number of entry requirements?

[Martyn P]

...... Is there a genuine desire to reduce the current limited number of entry requirements?

I can't imagine that this would be case Bob and I suspect the bulk of fellrunners with any affinity for the BGR would agree.

[fellgazelle]

My two pennorth..
I personally can't see a problem with top roping Broad Stand in the context of a BGR, after all it's only a few moves which isn't very much in the grand scheme of things, and the aspirant still has to actually climb. However I heard of a team using a caving ladder to overcome BS during a BGR recently which I think is pushing the limits of acceptability.

The Cuillin Ridge record is an entirely different kettle of fish and (as someone on the other thread pointed out) is more of climbing/mountaineering challenge than running. There is significantly greater scope for a rope from above to influence the overall time and most climbers would naturally move much faster on a top rope than soloing/leading. Bear in mind that these rules only apply to those attempting the record which can't be more than a handfull of people per decade. Anyone wanting to claim a traverse of the ridge, as far as I know can use whatever means they see fit.

Anyway that's just my opinion.

[simon cox]

"There's nothing to stop anyone doing a solo round and then doing a witnessed round should they desire to be a club member." - Bob, this is my point, if you have done an awesome solo round, you should get a loud round of applause at The Dinner - you dont need to do it again with witnesses to "tick the boxes", how crazy would that be? As you know in climbing, people trust ascentionists accounts of what they do - and the few that fabricate stories are typically found out quickly and the individuals and stories discredited - I beleive this self regulation works very effectively.

One of my Scottish mates did the BG on-sight and unsupported, to me it diminishes the Club not to count such inspirational efforts. Neither the Paddy or Ramsay Round "lists" require verification (which is a problem for soloists) - but are they filled with people who have made-up their Rounds?

Cheers, S

[old un]

I agree Simon in that a solo round is in some ways more of an accomplishment and the next step up in terms of mental strength but if your of the mind set to do a solo round then I wouldn't think youd be bothered about a round of applause, surely a quiet private affair is why yougo solo? And as for the bg club, then the rules are clear and few so it's a case if like it or lump id say. Although I can see your point the bg club has a tradition now and to start changing it in major ways would take something away from it i feel. If you wanted recognition theres plenty of media to gain that this forum facebook etc but if your going solo I doubt this is what it would be about for you.

[shaunaneto]

One of my Scottish mates did the BG on-sight and unsupported, to me it diminishes the Club not to count such inspirational efforts. Neither the Paddy or Ramsay Round "lists" require verification (which is a problem for soloists) - but are they filled with people who have made-up their Rounds?

How would you know? There could be some.

So far I'd doubt there's many fibbers with the CRR or PBR. But the numbers involved with the BGR do seem to increase the possibility of a fraudulent claim of sub 24hr success. It's already happened iirc!?

[shaunaneto]

but if your of the mind set to do a solo round then I wouldn't think youd be bothered about a round of applause

Well said

[Bob]

How would you know? There could be some.

So far I'd doubt there's many fibbers with the CRR or PBR. But the numbers involved with the BGR do seem to increase the possibility of a fraudulent claim of sub 24hr success. It's already happened iirc!?

There was a case a few years ago (maybe ten or more) when someone, who had claimed a ratified round, admitted to Fred Rogerson that they'd not actually done it. I think that the individual then did complete a ratified round. I've no idea who it was as it was well before my time.

The BGR is by far the best known of the UK 24hr challenges and as such attracts a lot of attention. The Paddy Buckley Round is slightly different in that Paddy himself doesn't specify a 24hr limit and the list includes several individuals who completed the round in 27 or 28 hours. It's only in recent years that the fell running community has decided that the 24hr limit should apply, certainly I've not heard of a summer "success" in recent years finishing in over 24hrs - John Fleetwood's winter round is one exception.

Simon, you are conflating two issues: recognition of solo rounds and club membership. As has been said on this thread and others, if you set off on a solo round you are likely to be doing it for yourself and either are already a club member or have no desire to be one. Club membership is simple - do a witnessed round.

Andy Hyslop set up "the rules" for the Cuillin Ridge traverse because he couldn't determine what the then record holder, Eric Beard, had done. He aimed to keep things as simple as possible so that future record contenders knew what had been done and what they had to do. The "rules" for BGR club membership are similarly simple and aim to strike a balance between lightweight and safety.

[Stolly]

Flippant comment ahoy!

A solo round is much easier in some respects - you can go at the drop of a hat and ensure fine weather, there are minimal logistics to get bogged down with and you can buy in the navigation with a decent gps. And any mistakes will be your own.