Fixing or ruining fells?

The time has surely come for footway builders to stop ruining the fells?
Yesterday I ran the Langdale Horseshoe route in the sunshine. Already many of the paths, including (what was) the lovely path up the left of the valley to Stickle Tarn, are blighted by stone-paved footways. But I put up with them with the thought that at least the whole of the route had not been built over. Then, after navigating beneath Esk Pike and over Bowfell and Crinkle Crags, I was looking forward to the long run down before the last climb up Pike o Blisco. But as I descended the path an awful sight greeted me. Large black sacks were scattered everywhere. They looked like huge versions of those bags which some dog-owners leave lying around (don't get me started on that topic!). Closer inspection revealed they were full of stones in preparation for yet another wholly unnecessary footway building exercise. And, inevitably, there was a sign to tell us that they were "fixing" the fells. But this obsession with building stone footways EVERYWHERE isn't "fixing" the fells. It is ruining them. Surely it now has to stop.

I agree it's ruining, where will it stop, an escalator to the top of old man anyone?? Stone paths a complete eyesore that stick out like a sore thumb :(

Anyone who's been on top of Pen Y Ghent recently will agree, they've dealt with the peat bog path by installing a pavement, I'm not exaggerating. Where does the wisdom and advice come from on this, let alone the authority to change so greatly a landscape of which we are custodians?

Walking and running breaks the turf and exposes the loose soil and stones beneath which get washed away leaving trenches behind. I'd rather they closed footpaths that were damaged and opened alternative routes personally. Jenkin Hill is a good example of serious damage; on the Skiddaw race you are not allowed to descend Jenkin on the path because of the increased erosion risk. Flags take you off into the deep and steep stuff for a mile or so, the race permit is conditional on this i think.

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Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Anyone who's been on top of Pen Y Ghent recently will agree, they've dealt with the peat bog path by installing a pavement, I'm not exaggerating. Where does the wisdom and advice come from on this, let alone the authority to change so greatly a landscape of which we are custodians?

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Peat bogs are a special case. Erosion causes new water channels which carries acidic and brown tinted water into the reservoirs, which then has to be treated. New channels also drain the bog and decrease biodiversity, there's no real alternative really other than to close the footpath.

whilst I agree the paths can be ugly and certainly detract from the "wilderness" element of the fells, there are serious problems with erosion which do need attention, else you end up with a huge scar across the landscape, which only gets worse and worse. In the Black Mountains there is a paved section of Offas Dyke which is pretty horrible, but this ends at a massive area of erosion which has cut down about 3ft. I imagine they're going to pave that too....Hard to see what else could be done in an area like that, where there's a lot of visitors on a fairly narrow ridge, except closing the path, which isn't an option.

The point I am making is that stone footways are being built everywhere even in places where there is minimal if any "erosion". The building work I encountered on the Langdale Horseshoe is a very good example of this. There are many many others. It's as if the footway builders are on a mission to keep on building regardless.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. There are hundreds of miles of paths that see little if any foot-traffic in Lakeland. Also there are tons of opportunities to go off-piste. It's what fell running is all about. There is brilliant running within a mile or two of the Bowfell and the Crinkles, where you'd be unlucky to meet ten people in half a day

Compared to the visible path erosion in the 'central' Fells 20 years ago, a number of sore sights do seem to have disappeared. One assumes that somebody does know what they're doing.

Considering the traffic, I'll buy a few staircases - up the fell anyway, like Great Gable on the Borrowdale.

The wilderness starts at The Great Glen and gets even better north of the Ullapool Road. I said that.

Eddie

No doubt there are areas in the lakes that do need "fixing" but the methods employed are more about "reinforcing". In places (Gt Gable) this is a benefit but in areas where there is a grassy alternative, I've noticed the grass is now starting to show wear as this is proving to be a preferable surface to walk or run on rather than the irregularly placed stone blocks. What will they do when this needs fixing too? More stone?

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Originally Posted by PeteS

No doubt there are areas in the lakes that do need "fixing" but the methods employed are more about "reinforcing". In places (Gt Gable) this is a benefit but in areas where there is a grassy alternative, I've noticed the grass is now starting to show wear as this is proving to be a preferable surface to walk or run on rather than the irregularly placed stone blocks. What will they do when this needs fixing too? More stone?

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Some of these stone blockwork paths are truly awful and not worth running on tbh. Really hideous things.

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Originally Posted by shaunaneto

Some of these stone blockwork paths are truly awful and not worth running on tbh. Really hideous things.

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These stone paths are clearly not built with runners in mind - some are not even built with walkers in mind - try descending from Red Tarn to Stool End between the Crinkles and 'Blisco - even walking down with decent boots on it is an accident waiting to happen - I prefer to go over 'Blisco and descend the other side.

A friend of mine fell and broke his knee whilst running on one of these fixed fell pathways. Had to be MR'd. I tend to run off the slabs where possible for this very reason. Anyway can anyone explain the difference between erosion by human feet, erosion by water (some of the biggest gouges in the landscape are caused by streams and rivers), and to my mind worst of all (and I say this as a sheep keeper), erosion by sheep - not so much by their feet but by the fact they eat any new tree/shrub growth and this in itself results arguably in greater erosion than any effect human feet might have. Trees hold the landscape together, decrease water run off, act as carbon sinks, provide a more diverse habitat. Not saying get rid of all sheep but maybe a planned withdrawal over a period of years. I believe the NT have done this in parts of the Peak District and the result is a magnificent "blooming" of nature. Just thoughts and no pat answers!

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Peat bogs are a special case. Erosion causes new water channels which carries acidic and brown tinted water into the reservoirs, which then has to be treated.

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As long as there is money in it, and as long as the delusion is maintained that that the fells are being “fixed”, then this ruination of our paths will continue. The footway builders have long moved on from laying flags only on eroded sections of paths. They put them on non-eroded paths. They even put them where there are no paths at all (eg at CrummockWater below Mellbreak). As the claim that this is being done because of “erosion” wears thin they invent other reasons, as with justifications for putting footways through peat.
The idea that peat bogs are a ‘special case’ in which footways are justified by the risk of polluted drinking water is chilling. It seeks to legitimate the despoliation of paths in a vast swathe of upland Britain. The water companies managed to provide drinking water perfectly well for many years when rambling was a mass leisure pursuit but before the footway building began. And I strongly suspect that water running off a peat bog might be a bit peaty anyway, path or not.

it does need more thought, and better alternates to paving slabs. I dare say many will fade back into the landscape and sit quite well but others are horrendous and unnecessary. Pen-y-Ghent one, Devils Kitchen in the Glyders being another.

Our planet has been eroding from the very beginning of time, and is a perfectly normal evolutionary process that nature controls and there is no single element of nature (including Homo sapiens) that can control the collective power of nature, so just enjoy what we have and adapt to the evolutionary changes.

I wonder if they can improve the path over ill and broad crags :p

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Originally Posted by Fudge the Elf

...and to my mind worst of all (and I say this as a sheep keeper), erosion by sheep - not so much by their feet but by the fact they eat any new tree/shrub growth and this in itself results arguably in greater erosion than any effect human feet might have. Trees hold the landscape together, decrease water run off, act as carbon sinks, provide a more diverse habitat. Not saying get rid of all sheep but maybe a planned withdrawal over a period of years. I believe the NT have done this in parts of the Peak District and the result is a magnificent "blooming" of nature...

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the transformation in the western end of the Kinder plateau over the past few years is truly remarkable:
previously almost unbroken black peat desert (and hazardous to cross)
fence to keep sheep off
dam up a few groughs
scatter some seed
now effectively the biggest hay meadow I've ever seen (and a joy to cross)

On a run on Ilkley Moor today, I came across another example of ruining a path under the pretence that is is being "fixed". Some time back, a horrid linear stone flagged path appeared running east to west over the summit. The remnants of the little, meandering and wholly innocuous original footpath can still be traced on the landscape. But in a cynical attempt to stop people using that lovely little path (in places where they have not flagged over it) the footway builders have scattered large rocks all over the path. I have seen this tactic elsewhere. It is all supposedly done to stop "erosion". But the reality is that having built their nasty unwanted stone flagged paths, the footway builders cannot cope with the idea that most people don't like using them. So they deliberately sabotage the original path in the process.

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Originally Posted by Ilkley Swimmer

On a run on Ilkley Moor today, I came across another example of ruining a path under the pretence that is is being "fixed". Some time back, a horrid linear stone flagged path appeared running east to west over the summit. The remnants of the little, meandering and wholly innocuous original footpath can still be traced on the landscape. But in a cynical attempt to stop people using that lovely little path (in places where they have not flagged over it) the footway builders have scattered large rocks all over the path. I have seen this tactic elsewhere. It is all supposedly done to stop "erosion". But the reality is that having built their nasty unwanted stone flagged paths, the footway builders cannot cope with the idea that most people don't like using them. So they deliberately sabotage the original path in the process.

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Have you got grid ref for this please? I'm curious to have a run out to have a closer look

Grid reference 125 452. About 100m west of the 12 Apostles stone circle.
If you locate the start of the paved footway heading west, the obstructive stones are scattered over the first part of the old path running parallel (on the northern side).

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Originally Posted by Ilkley Swimmer

Grid reference 125 452. About 100m west of the 12 Apostles stone circle.
If you locate the start of the paved footway heading west, the obstructive stones are scattered over the first part of the old path running parallel (on the northern side).

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Thanks

Descended the stone path from SE side of Red Pike, Buttermere yesterday. http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=317...5745&A=Y&Z=120 A long ordeal for everybody on it.

Was up on Foel Fras yesterday. They seem to be building a stone path between Foel Fras and Drum. It's one of the quietest mountains in Snowdonia and seems a little excessive to put flagstones over the top.

We had a walk round the three peaks yesterday. I'm guessing but 50%+ of it is now on built pathes or hard track. We spoke to a couple taking numbers of walkers for NP authorities. They said we were around no 350 for the day. In June they counted 1,700 on a sunny Saturday

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

We had a walk round the three peaks yesterday. I'm guessing but 50%+ of it is now on built pathes or hard track. We spoke to a couple taking numbers of walkers for NP authorities. They said we were around no 350 for the day. In June they counted 1,700 on a sunny Saturday

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there was at least 1000 on the Ben on Saturday...and this is a quieter time for nat 3 peakers

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

We had a walk round the three peaks yesterday. I'm guessing but 50%+ of it is now on built pathes or hard track. We spoke to a couple taking numbers of walkers for NP authorities. They said we were around no 350 for the day. In June they counted 1,700 on a sunny Saturday

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Now that me and Hester live about 50 yards from the Golden Lion, we can hear the 3 peakers all setting off on a Saturday morning with most going between 6am and 8am. The really big events tend to go off in May, June and early July with a bit of a lull over the summer holidays with them now picking up again in September. 1700 sounds like a day with two or three big charity walks which is relatively rare.

Despite my initial scepticism about all the pathing on the 3 peaks route with those sort of numbers of walkers, it all makes sense. I tend to avoid all the pathing going up and down Pen y Ghent by going up via Bracken Bottom and following my own line to Long Mires and, funnily enough, when I got to the stile there last time I ran round, there were two chaps (maybe wardens?) who told me that I'd "gone the wrong way" through the bogs and can take the better path nowadays..... to which I suitably harumphed :).

I'm shocked at the scale of these "adventures". They are many times the scale I'd imagined. In fairness there was very litter around on Saturday and we were late finishing. What is shocking is the amount of banana skins on the route! Wasdale "in season" is a horrible place. The amount of overflowing skips and bins is shocking

I went to Yosemite in the late 90's and the culture there is to encourage folk to carry out what they carry in. Signs saying there are no bins in the valley as Three Peakers approached Wasdale would surely be better than all the crap (in some cases literally) left behind

IanDP, I know you're involved in a professional sense; what are your thoughts please on managing these numbers of (often inexperienced) people visiting the countryside?

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

I'm shocked at the scale of these "adventures". They are many times the scale I'd imagined. In fairness there was very litter around on Saturday and we were late finishing. What is shocking is the amount of banana skins on the route! Wasdale "in season" is a horrible place. The amount of overflowing skips and bins is shocking

I went to Yosemite in the late 90's and the culture there is to encourage folk to carry out what they carry in. Signs saying there are no bins in the valley as Three Peakers approached Wasdale would surely be better than all the crap (in some cases literally) left behind

IanDP, I know you're involved in a professional sense; what are your thoughts please on managing these numbers of (often inexperienced) people visiting the countryside?

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Hate them which is why I rarely do them any more or to be more exact price my self out of the market. Although some still want to pay me.

I avoid doing the huge groups any more only small groups. NON of my groups drop any litter in fact we encourage litter picking which we take off them this tends to be bottles rather than any thing else.

It's the big groups that walk independently that cause the most mess as there is no real education.

Instructor/MLTA regularly organise litter picks on the Nat PPP. Talking to park wardens they consider the route honeypots/traps..it keeps all the charity walkers together rather than have them walking over other less visited hill dropping rubbish.

I've been active in encouraging wild trips for small groups which is much more adventurous and sustainable but is of course less marketable to the charities.

we had 20 Clients on the Ben with two other guides...one who is another forumite from years gone passed.
I think they all flew to Glasgow from Various points, it's great they contribute to charities and get on the hill but the carbon foot print is massive

I remember a good example of erosion prevention in one of the races starting at Errwood Reservoir nr Buxton (Shining Tor?). After reaching the trig you bear left and gon downhill where the path is held together by (I think) a combination of mesh and another 'springy' material. I didn't detract from the appearance of the local area and was pretty forgiving on your legs.

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Originally Posted by kennedr

I remember a good example of erosion prevention in one of the races starting at Errwood Reservoir nr Buxton (Shining Tor?). After reaching the trig you bear left and gon downhill where the path is held together by (I think) a combination of mesh and another 'springy' material. I didn't detract from the appearance of the local area and was pretty forgiving on your legs.

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The springy mesh though is now bare and getting torn. I agree that as a method of making a more robust path it is way better than the stone paths discussed above but it does need maintenance.

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Originally Posted by Corniceman

The springy mesh though is now bare and getting torn. I agree that as a method of making a more robust path it is way better than the stone paths discussed above but it does need maintenance.

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Springy mesh may be easier on the feet, but I would take issue with bringing in any material that is not naturally indigenous to the area. I was up in Snowdonia at the weekend and noted they have been using plastic coated wire gabions to reinforce paths and create barriers to stop short cuts. Looks ok from a distance but hideous close up.

It's not new of course, the Romans were at it too.. Guardian (2011) Rhinogs - photo (Although I'd set out looking for some crazy Asian examples). Given the numbers in some areas there's no helping it, but it does seem strange in more remote locations.

The National Trust was it a few years ago calling these paths a wonderful achievement/improvement? Or was it Park authorities?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...-steps-007.jpg

Medieval drovers roads

Isn't the whole landscape we enjoy manufactured by humans anyways? Fells cleared of trees, stone walls, forestry, quarrying and mineworks give the whole place a certain unnatural look, of course no less beautiful... Whilst as runners we hate them stone slab paths, im of the opinion they are quite an apt addition to certain areas that are vulnerable to erosion

But the point is the distinction between footpaths created by the ingenuity of generations of walkers and runners and - by contrast - the artificiality of a stone slabbed footway. A natural footpath is often a thing of beauty as it wends its way up the mountainside, taking in clever little routes and meandering around obstacles, valleys etc.. A stone footway, on the other hand, has nothing to endear us to it. It is an ugly artificial imposition on the landscape, unpleasant both to look at and to run/walk on.

On the other hand,...

http://coolgeography.co.uk/GCSE/AQA/...20District.jpg

or even Attachment 7837


(Soldier's Lump Summit, Black Hill Plateau, Holmfirth)

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

or even Attachment 7837


(Soldier's Lump Summit, Black Hill Plateau, Holmfirth)

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It doesn't look like that any more. it's just all green like a billiard table.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

It doesn't look like that any more. it's just all green like a billiard table.

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Helped by the path?