After a few from Labour and a couple from the tories resigned, are we seeing a political change or just PR stunts.
The SDP and Farge tried but amounted to nothing?
Will this be different?
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After a few from Labour and a couple from the tories resigned, are we seeing a political change or just PR stunts.
The SDP and Farge tried but amounted to nothing?
Will this be different?
I'm not sure how Farage amounted to nothing. They were the largest party in the 2014 European Elections and arguably there wouldn't have been a referendum but for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
The "Indis" will probably amount to nothing.
The one common thread they have is to offer a 2nd referendum because they claim the facts have changed. Clearly the facts have changed for their constituents, but they refuse to offer them a 2nd chance.
I’m really excited. I’ve been fascinated with politics since I was a wee lad
Saying Farge (sic) tried but amounted to nothing is interesting. You don’t think he had any influence in Brexit bearing in mind his ‘trying’ was pretty much just about us leaving Europe and that’s now looking reasonably likely to happen?
Your both correct in the fact that we had the referendum and Farge was instrumental in that but as a party I'm not overly impressed.
I’m not sure anyone saw UKIP as a ‘normal’ political party did they?
Suppose it all depends on if a no-deal brexit happens. If it does they could well get enough defections to create the necessary critical mass of MPs to allow them to win seats in the joke of an electoral system in this country called FPTP.
I agree. The 11 MP's who have left their party's so far come across as sensible people when they speak but the reality is that they are snakes in the grass, feeding from the same trough as the rest of them, and will continue to do so until the next election.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
To gain any respect they should stand down and fight a by-election but they are too self centered and arrogant for that to even cross their minds.
I agree to an extent re by-elections but think the eleven have made self-less and brave decisions to walk away from their parties stating why they’ve done it
As an aside I guess everyone is okay with me closing down all the other dull political threads on here? They’ve kind of run their time haven’t they and this one seems more positive, forward thinking and relevant 😏
But not self-less and brave enough to let those who voted for them have their say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
So: UKIP is now filling the (small) void left by the disappearance of the BNP. The ERG want the Conservatives to fill the void left by UKIP. And now the Independents have noticed that there is a bit of a void left by the shrinking of the Lib Dem party.
Regarding fighting a by-election: I think they have precedent on their side. I haven't got any statistics, but I get the impression that in the past only a minority of MPs who have defected ever resigned to fight a by-election. And there is the legal point that we vote for the MP, not the party. Having said that, there is certainly a strong moral case that they should trigger by-elections; although personally I would prefer to just have a general election.
Personally DT i don't think any thread requires closing.
Normally the MP doesn't call a by election when they switch. Carswell and Reckless did when they went to UKIP.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
But there are some special circumstances here in my opinion mentioned in my earlier post.
There's also the clear evidence that particularly Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston have changed direction since the General Election.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9yl...ature=youtu.be
Heidi Allen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1TI...ature=youtu.be
Sarah Wollaston
Have a read of this from Sarah Wollaston pre referendum. It could have been written by Rees-Mogg.
http://www.drsarah.org.uk/sarah's-bl...ederal-eu/1644
Agree 100%, they are the same as the Brexiteers, who are afraid to ask the people is this really the type of Brexit you voted for, are you sure you really want what is on offer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
I'm quite interested to see this development. I'm normally centrist so am pleased to see any move that might stop the right going more right or the left going more left.
What will come of it? Probably nothing. I hope that both major parties will see this as a threat and come back to their more traditional slightly-right and slightly-left positions.
I'm reminded of a response that John Major gave on a political podcast when asked about whether a new centrist grouping akin to the Macron movement in France should happen in the UK. He said he didn't think so because once the centrist party loses power (which they would inevitably at some point), the only option would be extremists. At least in the current system, there is an incentive for the two extremes to fight for the middle ground. It's just a shame that both parties seem to have currently forgotten that's the route to power.
Their hypocrisy is quite stunning isn't it. I think worse of the Tory defectors than the Labour ones to be honest. For the latter their party is controlled by a bunch of hard left anti-semites, it's hardly surprising that the likes of Luciana Berger feel uncomfortable. Although Labour did promise to respect the referendum result at the election, most of their MP's and members are remainers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
But I cannot understand the logic of the Tory splitters. Their manifesto explicitly promised to leave the Customs Union and Single Market. If they disagreed with that why did they stand as Tory MP's in that election in the first place?
I disagree Pat.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
If the Remainers accept that we decided to Leave, so there is a no double or quits and what any 2nd ref would be about would be "what kind of leave" I think most would say OK.
The vast majority of Leavers voted to leave - quite simple. We did it with the warnings of Project Fear ringing in our ears, so whilst we might not have believed it, we were certainly aware of the potential for a contraction following a vote to leave.
Having voted to Leave, we knew that Article 50 would be invoked ( we were told immediately) giving us until June 2018 to sort out the arrangements.
They've had an extra 9 months.
If they can sort out an acceptable arrangement, fine. If not, we leave.
I do not know a Leave voter who would not have accepted that at the time of the referendum or now.
So in a 2nd ref if we had:
Would you prefer to leave the EU under the deal arranged by HM Gov
or
Would you prefer to leave the EU without agreement.
I'd go for that 2nd referendum.
But are you a centrist under the historical definition of centrist or a centrist within the balance of today's politics Noel?Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Because in historical terms, the current Tory Government can be assessed as centre left even.
Labour have been tacking left since 2007 and the Tories have followed.
A centrist of the 80s would be seen as Alt-Right by Soubry.
Attachment 8740
That's an interesting assertion WP. That's certainly not the view of many of the protagonists of the late 80s and early 90s tory governments - Heseltine, Major, Clark. They perceive themselves as much more centrist than the current government. Do you think time has moderated their views?
I certainly agree that the Cameron/Osborne government was more centrist. This comes back to my point: securing the middle ground is an easy way to win power.
But yes, it's all perspective and there's certainly a historical element to this. Compared with the politics in other countries, our political parties would seem out of place and extreme on specific points that we regard as completely sane and normal.
But if everyone's playing down the left wing, it gets a bit congested and the centre then becomes the inside left position.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
That's how I perceive it.
If you define these 3 politicians on Europe then fair enough.
But when you look at their wider policies, Hesletine is to the right of the modern day Tories. Free market, privatisation, council house sales, he proposed rate reform in the 70s.
If you look at the chart on my last post, it has the Tories moving left in 2001. I would place that move in 1992 under Major and clearly Clark and Major are politically to the left of Thatcher.
Yes, also good points. It depends what axis you're viewing it on. Heseltine is right-wing in that he was a free-marketeer and libertarian, but doesn't agree with the majority of the right of his party over Europe.
Brexit is a strange situation in terms of left and right wing. At a very broad-brush level it is the centrists who are pro-Europe, and the more right-wing and left-wing are more eurosceptic.
I think it was ever thus. In 1975 the likes of Tony Benn and Enoch Powell formed an unholy alliance against EU membership. But opposition to the EU has become more mainstream in the intervening years. In 1975 Margaret Thatcher was an enthusiastic supporter of membership but had she been alive in 2016 I would have expected her to be in favour of leaving. Even the centrist David Owen, who left Labour in 1981 to from the SDP partly because of Labour's opposition to the EU at that point, is now a leaver. I think that what's changed is that the EU is a much more intrusive beast than it was in the mid 70's.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
This has become standard practice for the Tories. Signed up to a deal, then quit the next day in protest at the deal.Quote:
But I cannot understand the logic of the Tory splitters. Their manifesto explicitly promised to leave the Customs Union and Single Market. If they disagreed with that why did they stand as Tory MP's in that election in the first place?
Or in the case of Dominic Raab, negotiate a deal then resign saying he didn't agree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
To be fair to Dominic, it became abundantly clear that he had no real say in the deal - it was above his pay-grade.
Breaking news. Ian Austin MP has now quit the Labour Party.
"I always tell them the truth and I could never ask local people to make Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister.
"I am appalled at the offence and distress Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have caused to Jewish people.
"It is terrible that a culture of extremism, anti-Semitism and intolerance is driving out good MPs and decent people who have committed their life to mainstream politics.
"The hard truth is that the party is tougher on the people complaining about anti-Semitism than it is on the anti-Semites."
Damning indeed.
Apparently Austin is not joining the Independent Group as he is not in favour of overturning the referendum result.
I think this demonstrates the difference between the Tory and Labour defectors. The Tory ones are having a hissy fit and stropping off because they can't get their way over Brexit (even though they stood under a manifesto commitment to leave the Single Market and Customs Union). Some of the Labour ones have much deeper concerns with regard to the darker side of their party's leadership and followers.
I'm not sure what to make of this anti-semitic stuff. Clearly those in the know have more insight into this than I have.
Is it that Jeremy Corbin is pro-Palestinian (and therefore anti-Israel), or is he actually anti-Jewish? I can't separate out his opinions on the actions of Israel (which may or may not be justified) from his opinions on whether Jewish people should have the same religious freedoms as those who follow Christianity or Islam, etc.
I heard yesterday that Netanyahu is in coalition talks with extreemist Jewish parties. That can only be bad for the palestinians. You are alowed to say that Israelis goverment policies are bad but not Jewish people are bad. This is despite the fact that Jewish people are electing the goverment that is doing those bad things.
Labour are really tying themselves in knots trying to get the right balance and failing miserably.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/20/m...ntl/index.html
Haha, I massively disagree Witton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I just wrote a ton of stuff but, to be honest, it won't make much difference to the hard core leavers on here so I've saved you the effort of reading it all and have deleted it :).
I'll just leave this with you though: If there is a second referendum offering the choice to remain, remain would win comfortably today just on the back of the number of brexit voters that are now dead and the fact that the young pro-remain voters would massively mobilise this time round. That's completely ignoring the lies, the bullshit figures about the NHS on the bus, the bullshit about Turkey, the inappropriate funding, the fact that 'project fear' is largely proving itself right, that we didn't win the world wars on our own and that Brexit won't in any way curtail immigration (we'll just get different immigrants from elsewhere in the world).
And even if Brexit goes through, by the time it has and the dust has settled (say in ten years time) the younger pro-Europeans will be in the ascendence and we'll end up rejoining anyway
But Stolly you forgot about the blue passports. That’s a massive win
I would say both. I think he dislikes Jews and he doesn't like Israel - presumably because it is inhabited by many Jews. In terms of examples, I'm spoilt for choice, it's difficult to know where to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
- There was his support for the artist who painted a blatantly anti-semitic mural.
- Saying of "Zionists" that “They clearly have two problems. One is that they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, don’t understand English irony either. Manuel does understand English irony, and uses it very effectively. So I think they needed two lessons, which we can perhaps help them with."
- Membership of Facebook Groups which contained many anti-semitic tropes and comments.
- Trying to prevent Labour from adopting the internationally recognised definition of anti-semitism.
- Saying that it was an "honour and pleasure" to host "our friends" from Hamas and Hezbollah in Parliament. Both groups are dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
- Inviting for tea in Parliament the Palestinian hate preacher Raed Salah. He described him as “a very honoured citizen” whose "voice must be heard.” Saleh was found by a British court to have used the “blood libel” This is a vile anti-semitic slur that claims Jews murder christian children and use their blood in religious rituals
- Laying a wreath near the graves of the Black September terrorists who murdered Jewish athletes at the Munich Olympics.
According to a poll this year by the Jewish Chronicle almost 40% of Jews would seriously consider emigrating if Corbyn became Prime minister . Can't really blame them can you.
I don't buy this theory that is regularly trotted out by Remainers at all. It's true that statistically, the older somebody is the more likely it was that they voted to Leave. The same is true of voting Conservative and has been for as long as I can remember. So by that logic, support for the Tories should have crumbled over time as their supporters died off. So how come it hasn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Surprisingly it never seems to occur to supporters of the above theory that as people get older their views change - I'd call it the acquisition of wisdom. Young people are idealistic, gradually they realise that socialism doesn't work and that the EU is not the force for good they thought it was. So over time, sure some people will die but they will be replaced in the age group they have vacated by people who have become more eurosceptic, just as some will be more likely to vote Conservative than they were before.
As for in ten years time the likelihood that there will be a bunch of young europhiles coming to dominate and itching to get us back in, that's for the birds. I see zero prospect of that. Once we're out we will be out. It's just getting to the stage of being out that is the problem at the moment.
Well said Stolly. I think that just sums it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Well I’m 62 and I definitely not voting for a) Brexit or b) the conservatives. Anyway if you believe that to be true, you’ve nothing to fear from another referendum ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Why would you have a second referendum when we had a majority vote ro leave????
It's because they know best Stagger. Pure arrogance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
I voted remain first time around and if there was another vote I would vote leave
Because when the direction of such an important political and societal shaping decision, is supported (admittedly only by a small, extreme fraction of all of those voting Leave) but wholeheartedly by fascists the likes of Tommy Robinson, and when a Key supporter of the opposing view is murdered in the street in her own constituency, its only prudent and just to give people a final say.
An analogy might also be found in medicine, where clinicians, in offering treatment must ensure they gain fully informed consent. That consent is not absolute and can be withdrawn or varied at any time, particularly when new information. or circumstances arise. The world of finance often has something similar - that is, cooling off periods to allow a reappraisal of an important decision. So that people aren't ripped-off and 'taken-for-aride' by lies and spin.
It's interesting to detect the panic in the voices of those ardently supporting Leave, that they might suddenly lose the votes of a now much better informed voting population. After all, if the arguments are so sound and well made, what's to be scared of? Or is it that Democracy is good, but, hey we don't want too much of a good thing!
Because referendums are really stupid things to base such profound decisions on and can only give the opinion of those involved on the day it happens. One referendum today could kick out an entirely different result tomorrow. That said the only way a referendum result can be double checked (and hopefully over turned) is to have another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
Hitler effectively used a referendum to abolish parliamentary democracy in Germany prior to WW2. Why? Because it was easier that way to stir up a populist vote for something completely bonkers
You have a fair point Stolly.
However
It was a simple question to remain or leave the eu and the majority on that day voted to leave.
In a democracy majority rules.
In a democracy bullsh!tters like Boris Johnson, David Davis and Michael Gove should never have been allowed to brainwash the electorate with their crass ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger