Lydiard or Speed Endurance?

[Dynamo Dan]

It's hard to know how to translate road running training ideas to fell. Personally I think fell running requires more overall strength, arms,back and core as well as legs.

Overtraining is a real danger too as I found to my peril this year. Too many long races basically ruined me I was at the back of the field at one point after almost being in the top third at the start of the year.

Long races especially Lakeland Classics extract a toll on your entire body and I made the mistake of trying to do speed sessions straight after them! You start to get slower so you train a bit more and it becomes a vicious cycle until you struggle sleeping and have to stop completely.

Maybe it was a virus and not overtraining, but it's made me look at my training in a whole different way. To be honest with you it was a struggle not to give up.

[IainR]

But how big a difference do genes make? Is it the difference between running a 2.30 marathon and running a 2.04?

My old cycling coach was an international track sprinter and ran a 2.30 something marathon. He's not genetically gifted for running believe me!

He worked hard and fulfilled his potential. Would you agree that genetically there's probably a bigger difference between my old coach and those running 2.04 than most marathon runners?

TBH I think one of the biggest things you can have is the ability to tolerate hard training.. be it steady 80 mile weeks or hard 40's... not many can..

I know many who have broken down on too much intensity too soon...

Maybe its acquired.. I've been competing at sport since the age of 9.. so almost 25 years of training most days..

[Dynamo Dan]

TBH I think one of the biggest things you can have is the ability to tolerate hard training.. be it steady 80 mile weeks or hard 40's... not many can..

I know many who have broken down on too much intensity too soon...

Maybe its acquired.. I've been competing at sport since the age of 9.. so almost 25 years of training most days..

Perhaps but I was in the GB track cycling squad in my late teens riding hundreds of miles week in week out and I broke down through overtraining this year....

[Rob Furness]

It's hard to know how to translate road running training ideas to fell. Personally I think fell running requires more overall strength, arms,back and core as well as legs.

Overtraining is a real danger too as I found to my peril this year. Too many long races basically ruined me I was at the back of the field at one point after almost being in the top third at the start of the year.

I agree with this but I also think fell running is much more forgiving on the body than road training in terms of overuse. I know from previous experience that every winter I start to pick up minor injuries and I attribute a lot of this to road speed training when it gets too dark to run the trails properly (for the majority of club members that is). I had to stop the winter speedwork this year and go off road again and my legs feel much better for it, even with quality stuff thrown in the mix.

Overtraining is a real danger too as I found to my peril this year. Too many long races basically ruined me I was at the back of the field at one point after almost being in the top third at the start of the year.

I too have had this. I ran a solid first half of the year and did well at Holme moss, but it tired me for Borrowdale. I completed Borrowdale well outside what I should be capable of and pushed on to complete even when knackered. It's taken me several months to feel like I'm back to where I should be at this time of year and I suspect the hard long races did indeed take their toll.

[CL]

[.

Two team-mates of mine have been forced to retire because of serious knee injuries caused by wear and tear, both in their forties. I've seen it also on a lot of people in their sixties. Even Lydiard - the name in the title of this thread - had to have knee replacements, no doubt caused by his marathon training.

Not convinced by this CL. It's not very scientific. What's the incidence in non-runners, lesser runners etc. You're normally a bit more specific than personal, anecdotal 'evidence' which fits with what you believe.

Having said that I think you are right about quality training over quantity.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand your point. Both these runners have had scans or whatever showing worn cartlidge in knees and hips. I also know a very good fell runner who's had to finish because of arthritis in his hip, also in his 40s. These are scientific facts and I wouldn't say its illogical to lay the cause at running's door.

[CL]

[QUOTE=mr brightside;520117]I reckon it depends upon your competetive distance; though even if you are a marathon runner one long session a week together with other training thrown in should only see you at about 40mpw max if you think the same way as i do. I don't know how many long runs per week marathon runners do, surely they can't exceed 1 or 2?
QUOTE]

If you never race more than an hour I don't see why you should train much more than an hour unless you are losing weight, or can only train on certain days. Of course if you want to run a marathon then it makes life easier if you run a bit further to condition. That can be done though in one or more sessions weeks before, not everyday.

[CL]

I think there is a pathalogical problem with people running more miles to perform better in races, and a larger problem with this idea proliferating itself through magazines and little nuggets like the one i heard in the changing rooms on friday. Someone somewhere could probably prove to me that running an extra 50mpw on top of their normal program will give someone an edge, but it must come at a terrible cost.

Our dear friend Daz h did a lot of miles, but he did them on his bike and not on his feet, and as a Lakeland Classics runner he will have needed to prepare for the ultra longs knowing he could maintain his pace throughout. It's a shame he isn't available for comment on this thread.

Low body Weight is so significant for running. Often the mileage junkies are addicted to exercise for this reason. It keeps them skinny.

Beyond a certain amount and intensity of exercise there are no fitness gains to be had, as the body just cannot respond. A man running 100MPW may have responded to only 50MPW of proper training which means the other 50MPW was a complete waste of time. So back on the treadmill and getting nowhere.

[CL]

Run - The Lydiard way:

Middle Distance track - Men

First phase, for as long as possible -

M - 1 hr Fartlek
T - 1 1/2 hr Aerobic
W - 5 km Time trial
T - 1 1/2 hr Aerobic
F - 45 min Fartlek with hills
S - 10km Time trial
S - 1 1/2 hr (or more) Aerobic

Depending on your speed, that is not exactly 120 mpw nor is it devoid of fast running. This is also the build up phase, as you progress towards the track season the mileage drops and the speed work increases.

The "Crosscountry" schedule which I followed with reasonable results 20 ish years ago was not that different in the first phase. At the speeds I trained it equated to 60 to 70 mpw (I raced 10 miles under 60 min), during the 'continuation of racing' phase the only run over 45 min was the weekly 90 min 'jogging' after a the race day.


How far is a training mile?

A 10 mile run on the flat is obviously a far different beast than a 10 miler with a couple of thousand feet of climb in it.

But in the introduction to the schedules Lydiard advises additional running on top of these sessions; another two sessions per day to supplement the main ones. In this book he did move away from his earlier madness but not by much.

[sol]

Mo Farahs' coach said in an interview, that in the build up to the Olympics he did zero sessions on the road, as it deadens the legs. So he ran upto 120 miles on the trails, ( he' s a closet fell runner) the track etc. but he also does alot on the zero gravity treadmills and underwater thingys he has access to. His USA mate could only handle a maximum of 100 miles per week. Plus those guys dont have proper jobs, kids to look after full time and decorating to do. He did say that to run a marathon some road milage would have to be done.

[Harry H Howgill]

Happy New Year Mr. B.

It sounds like that you want to get the most out of limited training time. For the past 5 years or so I've maxed out at about 5 or 6 hours training a week (job, kids etc.) and haven't done bad on what some might consider to be too few miles. And that's not just in short BOFRA races too. It has been enough for good results in longer races like Rydal Round or Anni Waltz too. What I lose in time I have to make up in intensity so I don't do anything particularly steady and include a fair amount of interval work either as hill reps or on the turbo. About 2 years ago I found a great book which related pretty well to what I was already doing called "The Time-Crunched Cyclist" by Chris Carmichael. Although it is obviously a cycling book, the principles can easily be transferred to fell running. It is well worth a read. I tweaked my training based on its principles to good effect. With such limited time it acknowledges that there are limits. I wouldn't be able to race something like the Three Peaks well with such limited training, but that's fine. I enjoy running short / medium races. Most people infact do if you look through race results. I would lower the intensity of some sessions if I had more time to train, but that is the point, I don't have more time so I have to use the best of what time I have.

Hope to catch up with you at a race sometime soon

Harry