land of giants

[GeoffB]

I am with you and find Christopher Leigh's comments abhorrent.

Hear hear!

I would also prefer New Labour MPs not to use my money to pay themselves rent for properties they have already paid for. They make me feel sick too.

Er, isn't that the Wintertons who are doing that? Aren't they Tories? Or is somebody else doing it as well?

[daz h]

there is nothing wron with the benefits system its the way its controlled thats the problem



one big area where the problem is and the authorities will not for want of a better word police it properly is where a lass has a live in partner and he isnt classed as living there.

case in point , a guy works with me yeah
right she has 4 kids from four diff fathers, right my mate lives with her and he earns 20,000 per annum yes, she in effect has a tax free benefit payment twice a week + 20,000 per year
this is the problem
now and this will make you realise just how far new labour have lost the plot

because she has 4 kids she is entitled to a 4 bed house , right problem , council have sold all the houses off to a private company for 60million, spent that money on flower beds and whatever
they in effect now pay her benefit, she pays a higher rent to the private comany than she did before to the council when they owned the house.

so our tax has to increase yes
right my mate came to work and said DAZ guess what , what mate i said, he said daz she has recieved a letter saying because there are no 4 bed houses available currently they are going to build an extension for FREE onto the existing house she is in.
the system is out of control but still needs paying for, this is what happens when you have lands of giants, and the biggest giant of all ( the goverment) cannot stop it from spiralling out of control so

they inform all there giant friends
ie , shell, tesco, hsbc, bt, blah blah blah to increase there prices for the products that the tax payer needs to survive and so well collect more taxes FOC , ie vat, fuel tax whatever.

you need a lot of money to run our little island but you need even more money to f,../kin sink it
rant over
daz

just filling out yet another tax return

[daz h]

Guicko thanks for asking me this.Individuals have no moral responsibility to help anyone, or to expect help.Poverty,illness and disability are not claims on the lives of others.

I think we should abolish the welfare-state.If we did a small number of people would struggle initially.These people could be helped by private charities.

The Welfare-state has no moral basis whatsoever: Why?Because the money to support these institutions has been extorted from the taxpayer.In other words, if people really believed in the NHS, why does the government force them to pay for it?

chris abolishing the welfare state is not the answer, controlling it properly is.

[daz h]

and what amazes me is how many under 45s are not commenting

[Margarine]

Well I know of at least two that are Daz . Geoff you are right they were Tories. I'll tell Grouse to get his facts right. It's a bit difficult to tell them apart these days. I'm not sure I follow all the arguments. The giants are certainly in control, but I don't know about prices going up - lots of things are artificially cheap or even subsidised by income from other sources. I think this is to keep the consumerist wheels greased and maintain the flow of cash upwards. Petrol is far too cheap. We are not quite as bonkers as the Americans who have used all their oil and are now trying to suck dry the rest of the world's reserves. I do not believe that the true environmental and social costs of car use is met by petrol tax and road tax. Food is cheap because it is crap, and easily produced - even at low prices it has a massive mark up for the 'giants'. There are certainly abuses of the benefits system, and I object to many more of the things that my taxes are used for, but as far as I'm concerned it would be very easy to slip into the sloppy thinking Daily Mail bigot mentality that so many people seem to find so comfortable. If that happens, the giants win.


Freedom for Tooting!!!

[daz h]

Well I know of at least two that are Daz . Geoff you are right they were Tories. I'll tell Grouse to get his facts right. It's a bit difficult to tell them apart these days. I'm not sure I follow all the arguments. The giants are certainly in control, but I don't know about prices going up - lots of things are artificially cheap or even subsidised by income from other sources. I think this is to keep the consumerist wheels greased and maintain the flow of cash upwards. Petrol is far too cheap. We are not quite as bonkers as the Americans who have used all their oil and are now trying to suck dry the rest of the world's reserves. I do not believe that the true environmental and social costs of car use is met by petrol tax and road tax. Food is cheap because it is crap, and easily produced - even at low prices it has a massive mark up for the 'giants'. There are certainly abuses of the benefits system, and I object to many more of the things that my taxes are used for, but as far as I'm concerned it would be very easy to slip into the sloppy thinking Daily Mail bigot mentality that so many people seem to find so comfortable. If that happens, the giants win.


Freedom for Tooting!!!

good point at the end, one of my prime concerns is and always will be for our children.
i dont follow the same rule of thought that petrol and food is that cheap though. Yes for established people on the ladder they are affordable but for our youngsters coming through the system they are not , this will be a problem and will lead to them not buying that car, house, fridge, new fell shoes god forbid, thus in turn not putting down roots so to speak. How many of you on a regular basis think how the hell are our children going to buy a house???
perhaps im being a bit outspoken as usual for the forum, if so say.

[CL]

It's moral responsibility that makes individuals human. Taxes are not extorted from me. It's a privilege to contribute to a civilised society where there is a statutory obligation on the government to help people. What's more if individuals don't like it they are still free to vote against the system. Laissez faire or devil take the hindmost was once a very respectable political philosophy which is why I had to go back to the nineteenth century to find an ironic reference. There are still plenty of non pinko scum lurking around who'd be glad of your vote.
The only thing I require of government is that they leave me alone as much as possible and don't p*ss my money up against the wall. We may find some concurrence in this area.

Guicko the moral is the chosen and understood.There is no morality where force is involved!Taxes are taken from you by force, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

Laissez Faire(let us alone) and Capitalism is the only moral system in Mans history.The constitution of America was based on individual rights, not gang rule(Democracy).Americans couldn't vote for policies that contradicted the constitution.

Some of the founding fathers of the American system, believed that democracy without a bill of rights was tyranny.I agree with them.

To say the moral is whatever the majority chooses is an abdication of morality.

[CL]

chris abolishing the welfare state is not the answer, controlling it properly is.

Daz whats at stake here is freedom or dictatorship.The moral code freedom is dependent on is rational self interest(selfishness).The moral code that dictatorship is dependant on is Altruism(Self-sacrifice).The culture has been brainwashing eveyone into thinking that selfishness is evil, and altruism is good.Often people confuse the two concepts which makes things worse.Lets look at the facts.

Both Communism and Nazism were based on altruism.In fact the Nazis were much more explicit about self-sacrifice than the Russians.Just watch any old film of Hitler's speeches and you'll see what I mean.Or Watch the film Downfall.

Now do you know what I find abhorent?Over one hundred million people killed, not in war but by their own governments pursuing Altruism.

If you don't think its going on here look at the facts: Young being sacrificed to old(pensions); Healthy to the unhealthy(NHS); Hard working to the idle(benefits); Educated to the uneducated(public education); abled to the disabled(disability rights);Even Men to Women(Womens lib etc).

Anyone virtous(i.e Hardworking, honest,just, intelligent,independent and possessing integrity)Can go into the sacrificial furnace!

If you want all the above Daz keep supporting the welfare state.

[CL]

Well I know of at least two that are Daz . Geoff you are right they were Tories. I'll tell Grouse to get his facts right. It's a bit difficult to tell them apart these days. I'm not sure I follow all the arguments. The giants are certainly in control, but I don't know about prices going up - lots of things are artificially cheap or even subsidised by income from other sources. I think this is to keep the consumerist wheels greased and maintain the flow of cash upwards. Petrol is far too cheap. We are not quite as bonkers as the Americans who have used all their oil and are now trying to suck dry the rest of the world's reserves. I do not believe that the true environmental and social costs of car use is met by petrol tax and road tax. Food is cheap because it is crap, and easily produced - even at low prices it has a massive mark up for the 'giants'. There are certainly abuses of the benefits system, and I object to many more of the things that my taxes are used for, but as far as I'm concerned it would be very easy to slip into the sloppy thinking Daily Mail bigot mentality that so many people seem to find so comfortable. If that happens, the giants win.


Freedom for Tooting!!!

Margarine the only power the Giants have is economic power, not political power(Unless they are bribing bureaucrats).That would be the fault of the system(political) though.

Economic power is the power of trade not of force.Political power is the domain of compulsion(force).To equate the two is like saying there is no moral difference between Bill Gates and Ronnie Biggs.

[CL]

[QUOTE=wheezing donkey;103114]If individuals have no moral responsibility to help anyone, then who would feel compelled to found and fund the private charities?

No one would be compelled, because charity is voluntary.If a certain cause is important to you, and you can afford to support it(finacially or in time), then do.That decision should be entirely yours.