land of giants

[stevefoster]

Don't you know your own mind?

Yes, I know my own mind. But most of the people who end up in dire debt appear to allow their minds to be moulded by the media and the advertising industry; "Must have this....must have that.....can't live without commodity 'x'....etc"[/QUOTE]
Totally agree, and you don't need to save up for it anymore.

[CL]

christopher i once had a conversation with my gran who has been dead 12 years today and she told me of a time before post war wefare state.
A time when the likes of her had to rely on charity handouts and pay for this and that and a time of poverty the likes one hopes we never have to see again. She told me of her joy of voting winston churchill out of power to see a new labour goverment come in and implement a new welfare state if you like . Sure it wasnt perfect but it was a bloody damm site better than what she had experienced before.
we need to get back to a time when it was linked to national insurance and not fuel tax , etc etc to fund it and use it for what it was intended , to help the needy not to help the idle.

This is becoming a fascinating thread!

Daz the people of that time gave up their freedom for free dentures.Before the war this country was the freest and proudest nation in Europe.After a six year war we adopted the very same system,we'd just been fighting against(fascism).

Churchill said before his defeat in the 1945 general election: "My friends I must tell you, that a socialist policy, is abhorent to the british ideas of freedom."

Churchill was voted back into power about 6 years later.Probably when they(the voters) realised the mistake they'd made.

If people waited patiently, their standard of living would have gradually increased, at a rate much faster than welfare.But the people wanted it now, and they paid with their futures.

The welfare state is collapsing and when it does, you'll have virtually nothing left.Your life would have bled out in the ruins.

[CL]

Couldn't agree more,the common trend of people putting pressure on you to donate is getting worse.Your given funny looks if you don't "dig deep".I agree that charity should be based on voluntary actions(money/time),and when some of the big charities employ MD's earning in excess of 200k it goes against what charity is all about.I tend to donate to charities that should be funded by the government,RNLI,mountain rescue etc
Seems like alot of these larger charities have created an industry off the back of peoples good will.

Rodders charity is by definition voluntary.Giving to charity is not a virtue, and is not neccessarily moral.Just look at the tsunami(is that spelt right?) disaster a couple of years ago.

Your primary concern should be your own life(and family), and if you want to help others out as a secondary concern, thats ok.

[CL]

Unless you're going to invite a beggar round for Christmas dinner or do something else insanely saintly like foster. (Foster parents are saints!) what's going to happen if nobody takes responsibility? It's not very grown up to rely on "charities" to look after people who need looking after. No one on this forum is saying "are there no workhouses?" I'm sure. Christopher Leigh I'll bet you're a decent bloke, but it sounds like you don't give a b*gger about anybody but yourself and your money. It's nothing to do with socialism or toryism, just common decency. This society is too big to be unorganised, for people to educate themselves and bind up their own wounds. I take your point about mass movements grinding individuals down in the name of spurious common aims. But these aims were in reality the private sicknesses of a few domineering individuals made large.
Where the welfare state fails is largely in the lack of conscientiousness of individuals; I am a teacher and was a nurse. But for god's sake go to India where people will try to sell you a discarded banana skin in order to make a living for their families. That's the market economy red in tooth and claw. Try it as a beggar not a trekker.
We're in paradise in this country. All we need to do is click our heels and turn around to realise it.

The issue Guick is not whether you should or should not give a begger 10pence.It's do you have the right to not give him the 10pence and go on living your own life!

The early Americans educated their own children.In fact if I had children, I wouldn't let them near public schools.Public education disposes them to dictatorship.

One last point: If I didn't 'give a bugger about' anyone but myself and money. I wouldn't be on here convincing people to free themselves from their chains.It's not in my selfish interests to live amongst a nation of slaves.

[CL]

I agree with GD again. Concepts are confusing and always obfuscatory in that they hide Reality. I think CD is using them to hide behind to bolster his own egocentricity and fear (which is what most of us do, most of the time in myriad ways). He is right in that the media promote simplistic conceptual thinking for economic and political gain (they are not separate). The welfare system has failings for sure, but as Daz and GD point out, the alternative is shit - look at India or God forbid America. I am happy to pay taxes to see a country that at least aims for general well being and equality and does not put the pursuit of wealth above all else; I am less happy to see those taxes wasted and misdirected by the idiots that pass for our government, for example by bailing out incompetent and greedy banks and through crap like PFI projects and deregulation which steals to line the pockets of the "giants" and their shareholding minions.

America has moved away from the constitution and what the founding fathers intended for it.It is still the freest country on earth, even with it's contradictions(welfare state).In 19th century America, people had a political right to make a mess of their lives.Unlike today though, they couldn't make innocent parties pay for it.

The pursuit of wealth is a consequence of freedom, not the other way round.

[Trimm Trab]

I've only just come across this thread, fascinating and worrying in equal measure.

Christopher, you've made it clear that you're dead against helping those less fortunate than yourself unless it benefits you, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to what sort of system (if any) you advocate for organising a nation of 60 million people on a cramped island. As far as I can see, you think democracy is a bad idea and you advocate no taxation whatsoever. What exactly would you suggest to stop the whole country going to shit, quickly, under these conditions?

[daz h]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4185195.stm

a good article here
you wouldnt be allowed to run a buisness like the way this goverment throw away and waste our money.

a little comment at the end says it all

MUCH IS BEING DONE , ho ho ho

[Margarine]

America is the freest country on Earth? Hmmm. Think we need to define freedom. Sorry to open another can of worms. I think that freedom is liking what you do, not doing what you like. Who pays the price for America's 'freedom'?

[Wheeze]

In many ways we need to overhaul our way of thinking and our way of interfacing with just about everything.
To my view, the erosion of respect underlies many of our problems. The rich don't respect the needs of the poor. The poor don't respect each other or what the state tries to do for them. Kids don't respect their elders and the elders don't respect the kids. And the f**king media just stokes the fires. Generalisations for sure, but if we all took a pledge to match every 'right' with a responsibilty, then we might just see some progress.

What to do? Well, I'm all for a stronger 'Citizens Charter', something that underscores the common bonds that makes us a nation. And stuff all the money wasted on crack-pot political correctness! Surely we can do better than that?!

[Trimm Trab]

America is the freest country on Earth? Hmmm. Think we need to define freedom. Sorry to open another can of worms. I think that freedom is liking what you do, not doing what you like. Who pays the price for America's 'freedom'?

I was thinking the same thing Marg; you often hear talk of the 'American dream' - every American is born 'free', with the same opportunities, and you only have to work hard to realise that dream. It is of course nonsense, and the sad thing is that many of those that have the least opportunity of all are the most prone to fall for it.