land of giants

[Trimm Trab]

In many ways we need to overhaul our way of thinking and our way of interfacing with just about everything.
To my view, the erosion of respect underlies many of our problems. The rich don't respect the needs of the poor. The poor don't respect each other or what the state tries to do for them. Kids don't respect their elders and the elders don't respect the kids. And the f**king media just stokes the fires. Generalisations for sure, but if we all took a pledge to match every 'right' with a responsibilty, then we might just see some progress.

What to do? Well, I'm all for a stronger 'Citizens Charter', something that underscores the common bonds that makes us a nation. And stuff all the money wasted on crack-pot political correctness! Surely we can do better than that?!

A lot of truth in this I feel. I wasn't really politically aware at the time (too young I'm glad to say ), but it seems to me that a lot of the problems that you mention have their root in Maggie T's doctrine of 'no such thing as society, the only property that matters is private property, get your snout in the trough and bugger everyone else'.

As to the media, I think you're bang on there too. It's an unfortunate fact that reporting on a slight decline in violent crime (say), or writing a piece on how migration can benefit the economy of a country with a falling birthrate, will never sell as many papers as the 'Asylum seeker commits gory crime - how will it affect house prices?' type crap that passes for journalism in many of the national rags.

[daz h]

In many ways we need to overhaul our way of thinking and our way of interfacing with just about everything.
To my view, the erosion of respect underlies many of our problems. The rich don't respect the needs of the poor. The poor don't respect each other or what the state tries to do for them. Kids don't respect their elders and the elders don't respect the kids. And the f**king media just stokes the fires. Generalisations for sure, but if we all took a pledge to match every 'right' with a responsibilty, then we might just see some progress.

What to do? Well, I'm all for a stronger 'Citizens Charter', something that underscores the common bonds that makes us a nation. And stuff all the money wasted on crack-pot political correctness! Surely we can do better than that?!

wheeze i agree but our citizens charter is a croc of shit, the idea surely is to make accountable those who should be providing our services, ensuring a value for money system . As it is the charter is not a legal thing so those who provide our needs can write what they should be doing but it doesnt mean Jack because if they cannot deliver it they just carry on.

[daz h]

america, god i went there twice , if thats freedom good luck to them

[daz h]

A lot of truth in this I feel. I wasn't really politically aware at the time (too young I'm glad to say ), but it seems to me that a lot of the problems that you mention have their root in Maggie T's doctrine of 'no such thing as society, the only property that matters is private property, get your snout in the trough and bugger everyone else'.

As to the media, I think you're bang on there too. It's an unfortunate fact that reporting on a slight decline in violent crime (say), or writing a piece on how migration can benefit the economy of a country with a falling birthrate, will never sell as many papers as the 'Asylum seeker commits gory crime - how will it affect house prices?' type crap that passes for journalism in many of the national rags.

trimm trab just to be correct you can never legally own a property in the UK.
the word freehold springs to mind

[CL]

I've only just come across this thread, fascinating and worrying in equal measure.

Christopher, you've made it clear that you're dead against helping those less fortunate than yourself unless it benefits you, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to what sort of system (if any) you advocate for organising a nation of 60 million people on a cramped island. As far as I can see, you think democracy is a bad idea and you advocate no taxation whatsoever. What exactly would you suggest to stop the whole country going to shit, quickly, under these conditions?

Welcome to the thread Trimm.

Politics is not a primary, it's dependent on ethics(moral code).Ethics is dependent on philosophy(i.e a view of Mans nature).If a Man believes that humans are intrinsically evil, he will naturally support a political system that controls and regulates human behaviour.

The truth is, that Man by his nature is neither good or evil.This is because his consciousness is volitional(i.e choice).

I believe that given freedom (Freedom in a political context means-freedom from the initiation of physical force) Humans will pursue the right course.They will make mistakes on the way, but in the long term they'll succeed.This is because the capitalist system, punishes irrationality and evil.

We need to introduce a bill of rights, to protect the individual from the most dangerous criminal-the Government.(Today we hear all sorts of groups claiming all sorts of rightsisabled rights,gay rights,Women's rights,racial rights,the right to free medical care,education etc).(Actually no such group rights exist.Only the rights of the individual exist).

Before we introduce the bill of rights, we'd have to start deregulating the economy.Next, reduce all social security payments month by month, very gradually.At the same time taxes should be lowered at the same rate as social payments.This together with deregulation will stimulate business activity and capital investment.New jobs will be created, not just by the indigenous business community, but by foreign investors, anticipating the bill of rights.

Once the constitution is in place, all property will be private.If you want medical care or education for your children, go onto the open market and compete for them, just as the doctors and teachers will compete for your business.

As I consider the initiation of physical force immoral, all taxes would be voluntary and only paid for proper government services.These services are the Police(selfdefence from criminals), the military(selfdefence from foreign threats) and the law courts(so people who disagree can settle their disputes peacefully).

People would be willing to finance these institutions voluntarily, because they would affect their interests directly.

[CL]

America is the freest country on Earth? Hmmm. Think we need to define freedom. Sorry to open another can of worms. I think that freedom is liking what you do, not doing what you like. Who pays the price for America's 'freedom'?

Margarine freedom in a political context means 'freedom from the initiation of force.'

[CL]

Maggie T's doctrine of 'no such thing as society'

Trimm there is no such thing as society.Society is an abstraction.It means all the individuals, who live and deal with one another in a geographical area.

[CL]

america, god i went there twice , if thats freedom good luck to them

Hey Daz if it was that bad why did you go back?

America is no longer free, but it was almost free in the 19th century.If those people were warmed up in their graves, and observed America today,they just wouldn't believe the moral degradation.Saying that this country is in an even worse state than America.

[daz h]

Hey Daz if it was that bad why did you go back?

America is no longer free, but it was almost free in the 19th century.If those people were warmed up in their graves, and observed America today,they just wouldn't believe the moral degradation.Saying that this country is in an even worse state than America.

okay i admit it i wanted to see the shuttle blast off
couldnt do that first tme around

[Trimm Trab]

Christopher,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply to my last post, I've got to take you to task on a couple of points though...

Firstly, I can't agree with your contention that 'the capitalist system punishes irrationality and evil' - there are plenty of companies (and not a few British) that are doing very well from flogging arms and torture equipment to the more odious regimes we see in power.

Secondly, thinking that people would voluntarily pay taxes to support the police etc is, I think, rather naive, and flying in the face of basic economic theory. To have only voluntary taxation would present a classic 'free rider' problem - if it was only voluntary, there's nothing to stop somebody not paying their share and getting a free ride off of those that do. Since the most basic tenet of economics is that people act in their own self interests (sound familiar?), there will be plenty of people who don't pay their dues in the hope of getting a free ride and the system wouldn't get off the ground. This type of free rider problem can be observed in many different settings (the inactivity of companies' minority shareholders springs to mind), and the outcome is always the same - if you think someone else will make an effort or fork out cash, then you don't have to, but if you think they won't, then why should you be the mug to do it? You just couldn't have taxation without compulsion.

I can't believe that you seriously think that people can be organised in the way you suggest without the situation turning very ugly indeed.