World Cross Country

[Tea]

I must be a genius, because I can spell genius!

Let's be careful about glass houses, Chris....

[CL]

Let's be careful about glass houses, Chris....

Ok.ok.

[Tea]

C'mon Christopher Leigh we're still waiting - you've made these claims before on other threads. As an admirer of Ethiopian distance runners, I'm interested in what evidence you have that Gebreselassie and Bekele et al are drug cheats .

<lots of numbers detailing the potential effects of EPO>

I've put quite a bit of effort, into working everything out and explaining this.So serious comments only please.

This is a serious comment, Chris.

As an admirer of Ethiopian distance runners, I'm interested in what evidence you have that Gebreselassie and Bekele et al are drug cheats .

[dominion]

Ok, I'll bite. Records being smashed in the 90's ? 10,000 maybe, but it doesn't follow down the distances.

This is number of times records were broken in each decade. It's difficult to lay data out in a post but it should make sense.

Decade 70, 80, 90, 00
800 5, 1, 3, 0
1500 2, 5, 3, 0
Mile 3, 5, 1, 0
5000 4, 4, 6, 1
10000 4, 2, 8, 2

Totals 18, 17, 21, 3

[crowhill]

Okay I'll give you an honest opinion.

The main limiting factor in endurance running is oxygen uptake, transportation and usage in muscles.

Lets assume we have a natural athlete weighing 7okg with an oxygen uptake of 5.7litres a minute.Thats a V02 of 81.4ml/kg/min.Also assume that his haemoglobin is 15.8grams per 100ml of blood and that the quantity of blood in his body is 5litres.

Every gram of haemoglobin can hold 1.34ml of oxygen.So:

1.34x15.8x50=1058.6ml. Thats the amount of oxygen contained in the blood.

To get an uptake of 5700ml(5.7litres) the heart has to circulate the blood 5.38 times round the body.

Ok now we inject him with EPO.Over the next 4 weeks his haemoglobin rises to 18g per 100ml. so:

1.34x18x50=1206ml. An increase now of 147.4ml of oxygen before we circulate it round the body.

The heart pumps it round the body 5.38 times again.So 5.38x1206=6488ml of oxygen.An increase in oxygen uptake of 788ml per minute.

This equates to a V02 of 92.6ml/kg/min.An increase in uptake of about 16%!

Obviously I've started with a fit athlete, but you can see the problem.EPO wasn't tested for before 2000, and still can't be effectively tested for now.This incredible increase in performance is the reason why world records started to be smashed in the 90s.

I've put quite a bit of effort, into working everything out and explaining this.So serious comments only please.

Thanks for the response Chris, but I'm still not blinded by the science for the following reasons:

1. Records are still being broken by Bekele and Gebreselassie, so the argument about records being broken in the 90's doesn't add up. Admittedly, there was drug taking by 100m runners such as Flo Jo, Ben Johnson, and some promininent East German and American sprinters in the last 20 -30 years and those records are still unbeatable, but there is no evidence that it is a factor in Ethiopian distance running.

2. EPO isn't the only way to increase haemoglobin... training at altitude also increases the manufacture of haemoglobin and Ethiopia is, after all, a mountainous country.

3. Most significantly, none of the stats relate in any way to the question I asked about evidence of Ethiopian distance runners being drug cheats.

I still think that if you fling accusations around without a shred of evidence, eventually your arguments lose credibility (ask Mohammed Al Fayed.) I reckon the dynasty of Ethiopian distance running is still down to it's cultural status, hard bloody work, geographical/climate and genetic advantages and not magic potions.

[dominion]

...And Kip Keino and Henry Rono were breaking records back in the 60's and 70's, so African distance running didn't just start in the 90's.

[XRunner]

This incredible increase in performance is the reason why world records started to be smashed in the 90s.

The biggest improvement in the world marathon records since 1990 was achieved by Paula Radcliffe. Are you suggesting that she used EPO to enhance her performance?

[dominion]

The biggest improvement in the world marathon records since 1990 was achieved by Paula Radcliffe. Are you suggesting that she used EPO to enhance her performance?

...But the same as Seb Coe, she does a lot of upper body strength work, which apparently slows you down.

[Chris]

...And Kip Keino and Henry Rono were breaking records back in the 60's and 70's, so African distance running didn't just start in the 90's.

Look at Henry Rono's world record times for 3,000, 5,000 10,000 and the steeplechase thirty years ago.

Aouita broke a couple of those records several years later by quite small margins, and oddly it is Aouita who Christopher Leigh claims is the epitome of distance running ability.

[Track Fairy]

I've run 29:19 for 10km and was beaten by just over 2 minutes by two world class africans in the race. After seeing these men in the flesh and with a fairly clear understanding of my own (unenhanced!) abilities I have no difficulty in believing that many (or even most) of these africans are clean. I know other people who have trained in Ethiopia and Kenya and think the same way as me.
Now obviously there have been many cheats over the years but an exceptional performance is not evdience of cheating.
At the same time the implication that British runners must be clean and are getting a raw deal at the hands of the dirty cheating africans worries me. Surely we've seen enough over the years to show that British sports people are no more morally reliable than any other nation.