World Cross Country

[Bant]

I must be a genius, because I can spell genius!

Oh yes how silly of me, I unintentionally spelt the word genius wrong, I'm definately and IDIOT then!!!!!!

[Notlob till i die]

I must be a genius, because I can spell genius!

What a twit .... I'll let you decide if my spelling is correct.

Reading this thread it does appear you are getting an ever growing band of followers

[CL]

Fellow Mzungus please go to:

http://run-down.com/guests/wn_ode_to_innocence.php

This is a really funny satire that sums up the naivety of some formites.

[CL]

Thanks for the response Chris, but I'm still not blinded by the science for the following reasons:

1. Records are still being broken by Bekele and Gebreselassie, so the argument about records being broken in the 90's doesn't add up. Admittedly, there was drug taking by 100m runners such as Flo Jo, Ben Johnson, and some promininent East German and American sprinters in the last 20 -30 years and those records are still unbeatable, but there is no evidence that it is a factor in Ethiopian distance running.

2. EPO isn't the only way to increase haemoglobin... training at altitude also increases the manufacture of haemoglobin and Ethiopia is, after all, a mountainous country.

3. Most significantly, none of the stats relate in any way to the question I asked about evidence of Ethiopian distance runners being drug cheats.

I still think that if you fling accusations around without a shred of evidence, eventually your arguments lose credibility (ask Mohammed Al Fayed.) I reckon the dynasty of Ethiopian distance running is still down to it's cultural status, hard bloody work, geographical/climate and genetic advantages and not magic potions.

From 1973-1993(20 years) the 10k record improved by approx 22 secs.
From 1993-1998(5 years) the 10k record improved by 45 secs.
From 1973-1978(also 5 years) the 10k record improved by 8 secs.

Some of those earlier 10k records were held by kenyan, altitude trained runners.They weren't much if at all faster, than sea-level trained athletes.

What about all the other african runners that ran to school every day when young and competed at world level.They weren't any faster or better than sea-level athletes.

Sure altitude training will raise haemoglobin levels but not to the same extent as injections of EPO.

A kenyan steeplechase record holder tested positive some years ago, for EPO.If altitude training was equal to EPO use, why did he use it?

One other point.If you think Bekele and Gab are naturally trained, then you either have to say that their training produces just as much endogenous EPO, as it would from exogenous EPO; or- that they are exempt from the physical laws that the rest of us are subject to, and hence, doping themselves wouldn't have any effect on their performance.

You've made some good points Crowhill, but as you can see they don't stack up.

[CL]

...And Kip Keino and Henry Rono were breaking records back in the 60's and 70's, so African distance running didn't just start in the 90's.

I never said it did.I've spoken to Henry Rono, and he had quite a few things to say, about now and then.

[CL]

The biggest improvement in the world marathon records since 1990 was achieved by Paula Radcliffe. Are you suggesting that she used EPO to enhance her performance?

I don't know, but I do know Salbutamol has enhanced her performance.

I've already answered questions on her a while back.Go to the 'Drugs in sport' thread.

[CL]

...But the same as Seb Coe, she does a lot of upper body strength work, which apparently slows you down.

Dominion you seem to be an expert at Quoting out of context.Which is a dishonest way of misrepresenting my views.

If you don't like what I'm saying, give reasons and arguments instead of making puerile remarks.

[Chris]

Dominion you seem to be an expert at Quoting out of context.Which is a dishonest way of misrepresenting my views.

If you don't like what I'm saying, give reasons and arguments instead of making puerile remarks.

I think everyone's given you a more than fair hearing CL.

[crowhill]

You've made some good points Crowhill, but as you can see they don't stack up.

Thanks for the backhanded compliment Chris . This could go on for ever so I'll try at least one more time. Apart from chucking a load of stats about EPO and haemoglobin can you provide just one single shred of evidence that Bekele and Gebreselassie (and all the other magnificent Ethiopians/Kenyans etc) are drug cheats and not genetically pre-disposed, highly motivated, brilliantly trained and physically supreme athletes.

[XRunner]

..but I do know Salbutamol has enhanced her performance.

As a matter of fact you DON'T know that salbutamol has enhanced her performance.

PR has admitted to taking salbutamol for sports induced asthma and this drug has a small capability to enhance performances. This does not allow you to conclude that PR's performances have been enhanced by taking Salbutamol. You would need to carry out a series of experiments and controls measuring PRs performances before and after she takes salbutamol.

Similarly your statement that recent world records may have been improved with assistance from PEDs is equally incorrect. You cannot prove that any world record holder has taken PEDs to break the previous record.

This does not reject the alternate argument that PEDs are not being used in the sport but, for as long as PEDs are illegal, the only proofs would be by detection or admission.

I don't think you can conclude from super fast running that drugs are involved.

I have to agree with you.

Having reread your thread about Drug Taking In Sport I tend to believe the arguments put by people like Wheeze or Chris and the pragmatism of daz H rather than the pseudo-science that you tend to use to justify your statements.

The basis for many of your arguments is that because world records are being broken and because PEDs exist and are known to be used by certain athletes, you imply that world records are being broken by athletes who take drugs. An impossible conclusion that defies logic!

It is this type of rumour and speculation that are causing too many problems with the sport of athletics.