England Mountain Running Teams

[FellMonster]

she is not 'my' Pipps' !!. She does run with wings on her feet, has won road races and is the Cumbrian X-country champion. Speed is her middle name.

OK end of debate from me.

I wasn't suggesting she was your Pipps in that manner.....merely that clearly you support her.

All your statements of her achievement while good on the CV have to be qualified. For example, I once claimed a county schools track championship with only person to beat in the race.......not my fault, I could only race whoever turned up on the day......doesn't make me worthy of an international vest.


You must understand that I am not saying this scenario applies to Pippa but more demonstrating that statements of achievement need to be qualified. Furthermore, both Mary Wilkinson and Olivia Walwyn (who were selected) competed well in the trial race, have a history of running internationally in championship mountain races and in the case of Olivia has twice been in the top 20 of the English national xc champs, and once the top 10.

[Witton Park]

My 2 cents:

1) I think it would be wrong to make a selection based 100% on the trial race. Saying that, the winner should be guaranteed (or equivalent as publicised)...that's why i was outranged with the Long Distance cockup earlier in the year.

2) Stagger's suggestion about selecting the top 3 in the championships serves only to highlight his complete ignorance to any knowledge of running. I'm sorry if that seems harsh Trevor, but praise be that you have no part to play on any selection committee if you would seriously entertain that notion. Hopefully, you were just 'chucking it out there'. Which championship would you use: British? English? Let's face it, the British championship has been a softer touch (by comparison) than the English for a few years now as many do not travel.

3) Once again, I think the discussion on this thread has served only to highlight the ludicrous nature of the fellrunning championship system. This is not forumula 1 or a football tournament. In my opinion, it makes complete sense to have a championship as a 1 off race rather than a 4 or 6 race series, but then what do I know?

Fire away boys and girls....

I'll have a shot first then

Agree on your point 1. I suggested a a tightening of the discretionary selection with no more than 25% of squad by selector's discretion - which could have a caveate of "or at least one place" as if the 25% rule applied, they would have no discretion with a 3 person team.


On your point 2 - whilst I agree, I think that it's a little unfair to Trevor - he does know his fellrunning but perhaps is less experienced (other than armchair) when it comes to the T&F and Road gazelles and the nuances of selection policy.


On point 3 - I do not agree. I do not think it is ludicrous to have a British and/or English Fell running Champs in the current format.
I think it does throw up the best all round fell runner in Britain / England - of course I would qualify that by "out of them that contends".
By providing a mixture of distances and terrain I think it's a fair test.

But I concede that perhaps it should stay National - ie English, Welsh etc

It can be then argued that there should also be a one-off race for the British Champs. Maybe it should sit alongside the Junior Home Internationals.
For example - at Sedbergh this year, you could have the top 6 from the respective home nations, competing on an AM course in the Howgills over approx 10 mile for the title of British Champs and British Team Champs.
Make it Male and Female.

[Witton Park]

Just been looking at the World Half Marathon squad - Rebecca Robinson will do well to compete in that and then go on to Keswick.

[Stagger]

My 2 cents:

2) Stagger's suggestion about selecting the top 3 in the championships serves only to highlight his complete ignorance to any knowledge of running. I'm sorry if that seems harsh Trevor, but praise be that you have no part to play on any selection committee if you would seriously entertain that notion. Hopefully, you were just 'chucking it out there'. Which championship would you use: British? English? Let's face it, the British championship has been a softer touch (by comparison) than the English for a few years now as many do not travel.

3) Once again, I think the discussion on this thread has served only to highlight the ludicrous nature of the fellrunning championship system. This is not forumula 1 or a football tournament. In my opinion, it makes complete sense to have a championship as a 1 off race rather than a 4 or 6 race series, but then what do I know?

Fire away boys and girls....

Thanks for the comments fellmonster, it was chucked in as a "what if"

If we are going to be serious about these events we should prepare our
athletes for these events.

We would run similar distance races over the same terrain. The event is September so why not have trial races in June, July and August. The selectors then have something to work off. Any athlete would have to compete in 2 of the three trials with no excuses. (you either want to run or you don't, simply)

A fellrunner will always struggle because the season is 8 months for the Champs ranging from less than 3 mile to over 24 mile on some unmarked course.

We are on the fringe of this kind of event but some percieve we are good at it. We do have some remarkable athletes who can cross running disciplines but it you what to perform at a specific you have to train for the specific.

Cheers WP

[Stagger]

The Champs are OK to find our best all-round fellrunner who is willing to put the miles in both in training and traveling to events.

I have had some great experiences away this year, meeting great folk who all appeared to be enjoying it.

The only think I would change is NOT to have the British counter for England in the English Champs.

I may not have a running back ground but my life experiences have given me more than a fair share of common sense. (some people never have that)

[freakazoid]

I'm not sure it should, the 2/3rds of championship races this year were good traditional fell races, Sleive Bernagh (sp), Stuc A Chroin, Garn. Tebay was fairly runnable, but quite different from a mountain running course.

The Welsh team is composed of runners who have not ran on the fells at all this year and didn't do the trial either. Then there's fell runners who have missed out who have ran on the fells all year yet didn't do the trial. Tough call for the selectors so the most transparent way of doing it is placing all or most of emphasis on the trial.

The process should be as transparent as possible.

What is the welsh team?

[Pinchy]

Shouldn't this thread be in the non fell running, other races section?

[IainR]

What is the welsh team?

It's on the commonwealths site. List of runners. Also sorry I didn't mean it's composed entirely of non-fell runners - late night mistake!

I've got no problem with that, last year at the trial runners turned up and had awesome runs up Snowdon, showed their class, this year fewer welsh runners did the trial but maybe because it was non-wales based.

Which ever sport they are from if they turn up and run well at the trial that's life. I'm running the 100k so didn't bother with the trial this year but I do feel sorry for runners who missed out who either ran the trial or not and were not selected for runners who had not ran the trial either and have little or no fell/mountain running experience.

That's why I think it's fairer just to weigh it heavily on the trial. Transparency is the key for me. We feel we were harshly treated at a trial this year and the reason that spiralled was the lack of communication and transparency.

[IainR]

Just to highlight the problems I was only told of my qualifying time required for the 100k 12 hrs before the start of the 100k trial. I'd done all (my one training run..) at 8:30 hr pace and was then told I had to run sub 8..that's 30 seconds a mile. I don't know if others were similarly affected but in the end I was the only member of the team to run sub 8 but the paces were calculated on a piece of paper 12 hrs before the start and thankfully I held the pace.

Athletes should know of the qualifying criteria way in advance.

[FellMonster]

I'll have a shot first then

Agree on your point 1. I suggested a a tightening of the discretionary selection with no more than 25% of squad by selector's discretion - which could have a caveate of "or at least one place" as if the 25% rule applied, they would have no discretion with a 3 person team.


On your point 2 - whilst I agree, I think that it's a little unfair to Trevor - he does know his fellrunning but perhaps is less experienced (other than armchair) when it comes to the T&F and Road gazelles and the nuances of selection policy.


On point 3 - I do not agree. I do not think it is ludicrous to have a British and/or English Fell running Champs in the current format.
I think it does throw up the best all round fell runner in Britain / England - of course I would qualify that by "out of them that contends".
By providing a mixture of distances and terrain I think it's a fair test.

But I concede that perhaps it should stay National - ie English, Welsh etc

It can be then argued that there should also be a one-off race for the British Champs. Maybe it should sit alongside the Junior Home Internationals.
For example - at Sedbergh this year, you could have the top 6 from the respective home nations, competing on an AM course in the Howgills over approx 10 mile for the title of British Champs and British Team Champs.
Make it Male and Female.

We'll have to agree to disagree on point 3 WP as I've previously exhaustively stated that the current format should continue in the guise of the traditional "FELLRUNNER OF THE YEAR" which is essentially what the championships find- testing ability over a long period and a wide variety of different distances and courses. It's not exactly championship material as we know it however, especially when if / when it flies under the UKA flag. Anyways, I stand firm in the belief that my suggestion is the most suitable.

As regards my point 2.....it was not a reflection of Trevor, but more of the comments that he had made.....they were ludicrous and I was not sure if he was being deadly serious or putting a thought out there. While my comments were blunt i don't consider them to have been inappropriately cruel.

Thanks for the comments fellmonster, it was chucked in as a "what if"

If we are going to be serious about these events we should prepare our
athletes for these events.

We would run similar distance races over the same terrain. The event is September so why not have trial races in June, July and August. The selectors then have something to work off. Any athlete would have to compete in 2 of the three trials with no excuses. (you either want to run or you don't, simply)

A fellrunner will always struggle because the season is 8 months for the Champs ranging from less than 3 mile to over 24 mile on some unmarked course.

We are on the fringe of this kind of event but some percieve we are good at it. We do have some remarkable athletes who can cross running disciplines but it you what to perform at a specific you have to train for the specific.

Cheers WP

This sounds much more reasonable as a suggestion Trevor though I'm not sure how a series of 3 trial races on similar terrain would be more useful than the current one off format. Championship races are by nature a one off event (except the FRA champs- see my point?) ie- best man / woman on the day......shouldn't that apply to the context of a trial race with a small margin for common sense.
I would preposterous to use the FRA champ races as a basis for selection for these events.