England Mountain Running Teams

[Stagger]

This sounds much more reasonable as a suggestion Trevor though I'm not sure how a series of 3 trial races on similar terrain would be more useful than the current one off format. Championship races are by nature a one off event (except the FRA champs- see my point?) ie- best man / woman on the day......shouldn't that apply to the context of a trial race with a small margin for common sense.
I would preposterous to use the FRA champ races as a basis for selection for these events.[/quote]

The reason for the similar terrain Rick is that the right person gets picked to suit the actual event. Jebby up, Holmsey down, Bailey quick etc. If its just a sloping path the 10k or 10mile runners may perform well.

A one off does not give even a small margin, by having everyone compete in at least 2 you get a truer picture of who is in or out of form.

Take our friend Morgan D at Tebay, cramped and had a shocker but has run very well all season.

I take your point about the Champs though as its valid.

[Witton Park]

I can't see why we cannot have a review - I have sympathy with FellMonsters view and I look at the structure on Cross Country and think it works well.
Taking it from an English perspective.

Firstly, I like to start with specific County Champs - on the same basis as cross country from U12 to Seniors and held as an independent meeting.
They can then lead on to selection for the County to go to an all age group Inter Counties.
I would make the Inter Counties a closed event, where only athletes selected by their counties can attend.

Then, mimic the National XC, by having an English National Fell Running Champs - again all age group, with a set of criteria for seniors - I would suggest that it should be an AM.

You could have the English Fell Champs (renamed) similar to what we have now - which replicates the Cross Challenge series and rewards the most consistent high performer through the season.
(The final race could double up with the Inter Counties as it does in Cross Country I would then put on a senior AM race attached to the Junior Home Internationals.
To qualify you would have to have a finishing position in the English National Fell Champs. This would give us the British Champions.

The cross country structure works superbly and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adopted with a few tweaks for the fells.

In terms of specific selection races for International events, it could work as it does now. The selectors nominate a suitable race, but I think there should be more emphasis on trial performance.

[FellMonster]

The reason for the similar terrain Rick is that the right person gets picked to suit the actual event. Jebby up, Holmsey down, Bailey quick etc. If its just a sloping path the 10k or 10mile runners may perform well.

A one off does not give even a small margin, by having everyone compete in at least 2 you get a truer picture of who is in or out of form.

Take our friend Morgan D at Tebay, cramped and had a shocker but has run very well all season.

I take your point about the Champs though as its valid.

As regards the Morgan D affair at tebay, thats exactly where common sense can be applied, so I don't think that one race result is a convincing argument against what I've said thus far. So, I still think a 3 race trial system would be chaos and ultimately of no benefit.

As regards your sloping path comment- thats exactly what a lot of these European races are.....now of course, i don't want to be seen to be misleading......they are steep in places but much of the terrain is on grippy tarmac, forest or good firm stone paths.....therefore creating little problem for a quality 10k or 10 mile road runner who can obviously climb reasonably well.

There's too much awe for the likes of Jonathan Wyatt. Yes, he's a class act (albeit an ageing class act) but the reason he has won reasonably comfortably for many years is because a) he was equally quicker on the flat (13:27 for 5km, 27:56 for 10km, 1:02 for 1/2 marathon) and because b) for 6/9 months of the year he lives and trains at altitude in the alps.....a winning formula.

What you have seen over the past few years is that as Wyatt has started to get a little older, and the Africans have slowly started to come in, he's found it tougher and tougher to win but has still managed to scrape together the results......why? because the Africans are as fast as him on the flat, if not moreso, and likely live and train at altitude in their countries. Truth of the matter is that Bekele would murder him tomorrow over a world champs course.....like taking candy from a baby. Why? because he's faster on the flat and an athlete of his calibre will live and train on hills around his native country. Sad, but true.

Now, the reason Brits have been on the fringe for so long is mainly because they are not quick enough on the flat. Added to that, the likes of Jebby and Hope spend much of their season racing on the fells (a long tough season racing over a huge variety of terrain). They also have full time jobs and don't live/train at all altitude. Incredible jacks of all trades but inevitably doomed to trail distantly behind the likes of Wyatt for all the reasons above. Then we have the likes of Steve Vernon and Andi Jones. If they dedicated their whole year to a desire to compete against the likes of Wyatt, they would undoubtedly be in the hunt for a medal. Would they win? Probably not because they probably would still be not as quick over 10km as the leading Africans. Vernon could perhaps go particularly close in this regard (compare with the likes of Martin Cox and Billy Burns who've adopted the whole European existence). But I imagine Steve Vernon (like Andi) has a job to help make ends meet, and the prospect of living a meagre existence in the Alps dedicating oneself for a year to achieve a goal which will ultimately have no financial award (this isnt a big city marathon folks) doesn't make any financial sense.

I can't see why we cannot have a review - I have sympathy with FellMonsters view and I look at the structure on Cross Country and think it works well.
Taking it from an English perspective.

Firstly, I like to start with specific County Champs - on the same basis as cross country from U12 to Seniors and held as an independent meeting.
They can then lead on to selection for the County to go to an all age group Inter Counties.
I would make the Inter Counties a closed event, where only athletes selected by their counties can attend.

Then, mimic the National XC, by having an English National Fell Running Champs - again all age group, with a set of criteria for seniors - I would suggest that it should be an AM.

You could have the English Fell Champs (renamed) similar to what we have now - which replicates the Cross Challenge series and rewards the most consistent high performer through the season.
(The final race could double up with the Inter Counties as it does in Cross Country I would then put on a senior AM race attached to the Junior Home Internationals.
To qualify you would have to have a finishing position in the English National Fell Champs. This would give us the British Champions.

The cross country structure works superbly and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adopted with a few tweaks for the fells.

In terms of specific selection races for International events, it could work as it does now. The selectors nominate a suitable race, but I think there should be more emphasis on trial performance.

Sounds like a plan WP

[Roadrunner]

Just been looking at the World Half Marathon squad - Rebecca Robinson will do well to compete in that and then go on to Keswick.

The Commonwealths are Sept 19th ish and the World Half is 11th October. I dont think she will have much of a problem getting to both.

[Witton Park]

I must be losing it - I got my dates mixed up

[Welsh Harrier]

What is the welsh team?

Up only:
Gents - Matt Collins/Andrew Davies/Matt Gilbert/Dewi Griffiths/Pete Ryder
Ladies - Anna Bartlett/Jackie Lee/ Angela Jones/Gina Paletta/Sarah Ridgway/Andrea Rowlands

Up and Down
Gents - Ricky Challinor/Tim Davies/Richie Roberts/Rob Samuel/Martin Shaw/Jorge Thomas
Ladies - Carys Davies/Jackie Lee/Jenny Heming/Sarah Ridgway/Gina Paletta/ Andrea Rowlands

Plus Messrs Pares and Ridgway are doing these funny long long races!

http://cumbriacommonwealthchampionsh...hletes_002.xls

[IainR]

Martin Shaw's out with a knee injury, Math is running instead.

You close to a return? started running yet?

Looks a strong welsh team.

[Yorkshire Thug]

Ladies - Anna Bartlett/Jackie Lee/ Angela Jones/Gina Paletta/Sarah Ridgway/Andrea Rowlands

You'll notice that it says on the Commonwealth Games website that "Since Wales cannot compete at the Olympic Games as a separate nation, the Commonwealth Games provides the Principality with its only opportunity to compete in a major international multi-sport event." Considering this, it does seem a shame that Wales has to resort to using non-Welsh ladies in its team!

[alphandomega]

You'll notice that it says on the Commonwealth Games website that "Since Wales cannot compete at the Olympic Games as a separate nation, the Commonwealth Games provides the Principality with its only opportunity to compete in a major international multi-sport event." Considering this, it does seem a shame that Wales has to resort to using non-Welsh ladies in its team!

As Cecil Rhodes (almost) said: "To be born in Yorkshire is to draw first prize in the lottery of life" and so I think a little indulgence can be allowed. Although I am a little suspicious of the provenance of someone who needs to call themselves after God's own county. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (Shakespeare-another fine Yorkshireman).

[RhosgadMath]

You'll notice that it says on the Commonwealth Games website that "Since Wales cannot compete at the Olympic Games as a separate nation, the Commonwealth Games provides the Principality with its only opportunity to compete in a major international multi-sport event." Considering this, it does seem a shame that Wales has to resort to using non-Welsh ladies in its team!

As in any sport there is a difference between being a certain nationality and having "a certain nationality elgibility".

A Welsh scholar told me his definition of being "Welsh" is someone who can speak the language and I agree with him on that one.

On the question of nationality the English cricket team's would be an interesting one to look a little closer at?

Finally with regards to the Welsh ladies team, one only has to have a look at most Welsh fell races to see how few female senior runners there are knocking about.....Welsh or not?!