Border Collie Pup

[noel]

1. How do your actions lead to less senseless dog killing?- by rehoming one instead of buying one that's been manufactured for profit. every time a puppy is bought or sold, a breeder is encouraged to repeat the exercise. If there was no market, they would stop.

OK, I understand your argument, but I think it's based on incorrect assumptions. This is the way I see it: There are a number of people who will always buy dogs and will then get rid of them or have them put down for a number of reasons. There is already a market for these people, and there always will be. People like me who would not put a dog down (unless to prevent suffering) and would not send it to a rescue centre, do not increase or decrease this number of people, or the cost of dogs by buying dogs from breeders. We increase the number of dogs, but not their ownership by irresponsible owners. I'd like to draw a venn diagram to describe this better.

I agree that by buying a dog and not rehoming one, I would not be part of the solution. But neither would I be part of the problem. As it happens, I did rehouse one.

3. 'Mental scarring'. The only non-human animals with any evidence for abstract thinking is the higher primates, re: tool-making in a very minor way. There is zero evidence of abstract thought in dogs.

I don't think we're arguing about whether it's learnt, memory-based or otherwise (at least I'm not). The fact is previous experiences affect a dog's behaviour. Why would someone want a dog that they had to then take through these forms of therapy, when they can get one from a reputable breeder with whom (more often than not) they would not.

Also, it's not as simple as giving your dog a biscuit for a few months when they see something they're scared of. As you well know, some dogs take many years to get over certain phobias (or whatever you would call them), or never fully do. I have some friends who have a lovely rescue dog who is scared of men - for very good and quite harrowing reasons. They've been to a number of dog professionals and are following the best advice to the letter. The dog is still scared of her male owner (albeit slightly less so).

[sore legs]

I have 1 remaining border collie pup (bitch) for sale.. she is mostly white with a bit of black on her face and back.
£300 with a deposit required
Phil

300 notes for a BC - unless it is a international trialling champion you are having a laugh.

I would love to take dogs that require rehoming - especially the ones that are elderly so that I could offer them the love that they deserve, especially in their twilight years. Unfortunately the other half would potentially find this too distressing but we have decided that we would take younger ones. Our oldest dog was from a farmer who wanted rid as he stopped working the sheep (probably because he had become epiletic but this was unknown to the farmer as he was housed outside) he was free - he was 4 at the time and was probably lucky that the farmer was kind hearted as most would have disposed of a non-working BC himself and our second was a puppy - but again from a farmer. He simply had allowed his working dogs to breed - he does not breed for a business though and he only wanted £30 to cover the costs of some injections.

Both of these instances we feel that we have contributed to giving both our dogs a quality home and the care and attention that they deserve - which the dogs certainly show back to us.

This does not answer any of the issues that have been raised in this thread - but I certainly would never buy from a breeder who does that as a profession - EVER.

[Longdogs]

OK, I understand your argument, but I think it's based on incorrect assumptions. This is the way I see it: There are a number of people who will always buy dogs and will then get rid of them or have them put down for a number of reasons. There is already a market for these people, and there always will be. People like me who would not put a dog down (unless to prevent suffering) and would not send it to a rescue centre, do not increase or decrease this number of people, or the cost of dogs by buying dogs from breeders. We increase the number of dogs, but not their ownership by irresponsible owners. I'd like to draw a venn diagram to describe this better.

I agree that by buying a dog and not rehoming one, I would not be part of the solution. But neither would I be part of the problem. As it happens, I did rehouse one.



I don't think we're arguing about whether it's learnt, memory-based or otherwise (at least I'm not). The fact is previous experiences affect a dog's behaviour. Why would someone want a dog that they had to then take through these forms of therapy, when they can get one from a reputable breeder with whom (more often than not) they would not.

Also, it's not as simple as giving your dog a biscuit for a few months when they see something they're scared of. As you well know, some dogs take many years to get over certain phobias (or whatever you would call them), or never fully do. I have some friends who have a lovely rescue dog who is scared of men - for very good and quite harrowing reasons. They've been to a number of dog professionals and are following the best advice to the letter. The dog is still scared of her male owner (albeit slightly less so).

So you're saying there a two populations of people- those who re-home dogs and those who buy new ones. Lets suppose you're right. If i persuade 10 people today to move from the second population to the first that's 10 dogs lives saved. If i persuade 10 people to do the reverse, that's 10 financial transactions which have a net effect of encouraging the beneficient of those transactions to manufacture more product, and 10 failures to get people to save a dog's life. That's how it is being part of the problem.

Of course previous experience affects a dog's behaviour, just not in the way people usually think. And i did point out that my example was simplified as a demonstration, for the purposes of explaining how a dog's brain works. I have got 11 years of postgraduate training on the subject- i can elaborate if you like. The example i gave is not 'therapy'- it's part of a daily interaction with all dogs, all the time, that results in particular behaviours recurring or not recurring. This is true of any dog, wherever it comes from. And i repeat, just because a dog is rehomed does not mean it will have any problematic behavioural issues at all. If buying a puppy from a reputable breeder guarantees no behavioural problems for life, tell me why its the most commonly cited reason to request euthanasia in pedigree dogs?

You ask why should someone go to the trouble of reshaping the behaviour of a dog who does happen to have some problems? Because they care. Because its rewarding. Because its the right thing to do. Because it gives meaning and purpose to your life. Because nobody else will. Because the dog is not a commodity for our selfish convenience. Because they can. Because it demonstrates to others that its possible and they might try it. That's off the top of my head, i may think of more reasons later..

[noel]

So you're saying there a two populations of people- those who re-home dogs and those who buy new ones.

No, I said those who are irresponsible owners who have bought dogs from breeders and those who are not but have bought dogs anyway. I've done my venn diagram.

The example i gave is not 'therapy'- it's part of a daily interaction with all dogs, all the time, that results in particular behaviours recurring or not recurring.

You ask why should someone go to the trouble of reshaping the behaviour of a dog who does happen to have some problems? Because they care. Because its rewarding. Because its the right thing to do. Because it gives meaning and purpose to your life. Because nobody else will. Because the dog is not a commodity for our selfish convenience. Because they can. Because it demonstrates to others that its possible and they might try it. That's off the top of my head, i may think of more reasons later..

You're a better person that I am Longdogs. I think it's fair to say that for most people (me included), this isn't why we get dogs. I have no great ambition to undo the evils of society, but will help if I can and it doesn't put me out too much. I just want a dog for the enjoyment it brings to both of us.

[simgreen78]

Having considered Noel's diagram, what is the process to nominate somebody for one of the Nobel Prizes?

[noel]

Having considered Noel's diagram, what is the process to nominate somebody for one of the Nobel Prizes?

I am amused by how this thread, despite being in the sales and wants forum, has mutated into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of the puppy market. Sorry Philt1.

I guess having read this thread, we should hope that you find an owner, but that you have to reduce the price and that you vet the buyers carefully.

[Longdogs]

No, I said those who are irresponsible owners who have bought dogs from breeders and those who are not but have bought dogs anyway. I've done my venn diagram.

Nice diagram but i don't agree with it. In my experience, there aren't 2 populations of owners- irresponsible and not, with no crossover. Sometimes people who would consider themselves definitely in one category (i.e. the responsible one) wake up one day and find they are in the other.. Peoples' circumstances change, they find they can no longer look after their dog, they get ill, divorced, made redundant, goddam it sometimes the pesky buggers even die on us. Voila- a homeless dog, at which point they (the owners, still living ones) wake up and smell the coffee, realising there is nowhere for their beloved pet to go.

[Longdogs]

I just want a dog for the enjoyment it brings to both of us.

p.s. one of my points being, you can have this without buying a puppy..

p.p.s. not a better person, this just happens to be my 'thing', i am a total arse in all other areas of life

[noel]

p.p.s. not a better person, this just happens to be my 'thing', i am a total arse in all other areas of life

It's nice to know there is a balance.

[JohnK]

So you're saying there a two populations of people- those who re-home dogs and those who buy new ones. Lets suppose you're right. If i persuade 10 people today to move from the second population to the first that's 10 dogs lives saved. If i persuade 10 people to do the reverse, that's 10 financial transactions which have a net effect of encouraging the beneficient of those transactions to manufacture more product, and 10 failures to get people to save a dog's life. That's how it is being part of the problem.

Of course previous experience affects a dog's behaviour, just not in the way people usually think. And i did point out that my example was simplified as a demonstration, for the purposes of explaining how a dog's brain works. I have got 11 years of postgraduate training on the subject- i can elaborate if you like. The example i gave is not 'therapy'- it's part of a daily interaction with all dogs, all the time, that results in particular behaviours recurring or not recurring. This is true of any dog, wherever it comes from. And i repeat, just because a dog is rehomed does not mean it will have any problematic behavioural issues at all. If buying a puppy from a reputable breeder guarantees no behavioural problems for life, tell me why its the most commonly cited reason to request euthanasia in pedigree dogs?

You ask why should someone go to the trouble of reshaping the behaviour of a dog who does happen to have some problems? Because they care. Because its rewarding. Because its the right thing to do. Because it gives meaning and purpose to your life. Because nobody else will. Because the dog is not a commodity for our selfish convenience. Because they can. Because it demonstrates to others that its possible and they might try it. That's off the top of my head, i may think of more reasons later..

I don`t want to join the debate but i feel that I should say I am 100% behind Longdogs in her sentiments.



The Collie in my Avatar was a rescue dog and in fact was just hours away from Euthanasia when we called the rescue home looking for a collie that needed rehoming, to cut a long story short we were introduced to a trembling Psychotic animal that had obviously had a pretty shabby start to life, anyway despite all the warnings we were given as regard`s to how difficult she could be, we made a donation and took her home yes she was hard work having never been socialised with people, other animals etc and she just appeared to be afraid of everything especially wide open spaces, she couldn`t handle stiles, Gates , afraid of Rivers and open water etc etc, But now several years down the line we have a Beautiful confident (almost ) collie that is a joy to be with and we often remark that it is good that our dog now realises that not everthing is out to get her.

So for me at least until the dog homes are empty, then there is really is no need to buy or breed puppys, much better to make a donation to a home and give a living creature a fair chance at life rather than turning your back and condeming often a very good animal to an early death.

Buying a Puppy gives you no more Gaurantees than re-homing an animal, at the end of the day it is all up to the handler/trainers ability to teach the dog to intergrate into what for it is an unatural enviroment, that given a chance I suspect it would choose not to be a part of.