Border Collie Pup

[nikalas]

Been following this thread closely as I straddle both camps..... our first dog Moses we re-homed (via a breed rescue society) as a four year old three years ago. He was living with a family who had a second daughter who was allergic to him and was banished to the shed for three months before they contacted the breed society. He's a great dog who ticks all our boxes. The breed, Finnish Lapphund, will take as much exercise as a collie (they're used to herd reindeer by the Sami nomads in the far North) but are equally happy to chill in the house for days on end, are very placid in nature and are renowned for being good with kids (the Sami use them as child minders when in camp). This year we decided to get another dog as Moses is starting to slow down a bit and contacted the breed society again. However, as the breed is very small in the UK, rescue dogs are like hen's teeth but we knew we wanted another Lapphund. In the end, we got a pup, Otso. I wrangled for ages with myself about the ethics of getting a pup and think that some of the attitude of some breeders of some breeds and the KC is abhorrent. That said, the Finnish Lapphund club in Great Britain is very forward looking regarding health testing, genetics, not line breeding and importing new blood into the country and even scouring the far North for dogs amongst the herdsmen (Otso's maternal Grandmother ran with the reindeer). I understand what Longdogs is saying about it being a myth about knowing what you're getting with a pedigree but, we knew the breed and knew both his mum and dad well and have made 100% sure we've looked after the nurture side of the equation with an intensive socialisation and training regime. When it came down to it we loaded the dice as heavily as possible to get us the right dog at the right time and, at 5 months, he's ticking all the boxes. I'm sure in 6-7 years when we're looking for another dog, we'll explore the rescue route first again but, we've found a breed that suits us and our lives perfectly, so, chances are, it'll be another Lapphund.

[simgreen78]

Excellent post Nikalas. An example of how and when it can be right.

As a related aside, can anybody advise on the proliferation of Staffordshire Bull Terriers in rescue centres across the country? I'm in semi-regular contact with a few re-homing centres and sanctuaries in South Yorkshire and they are absolutely inundated with them. Some are almost replete. Just wondered if this is a local or a national thing?

[noel]

Excellent post Nikalas. An example of how and when it can be right.

As a related aside, can anybody advise on the proliferation of Staffordshire Bull Terriers in rescue centres across the country? I'm in semi-regular contact with a few re-homing centres and sanctuaries in South Yorkshire and they are absolutely inundated with them. Some are almost replete. Just wondered if this is a local or a national thing?

I noticed this too. I was browsing some sites, on the back of this debate, and noticed that almost half of all dogs are staffies. Does this say something about the type of people that this dog appeals to?

[nikalas]

We noticed it too when looking through the rescue centres... unfortunately they're seen as an accessory in "Chav Chic" culture and a mini/legal version of pit bulls for wannabe "hardmen".

[Longdogs]

Excellent post Nikalas. An example of how and when it can be right.

Sorry, but i still can't agree. It's great if someone puts in the effort of finding a healthy dog and looks after it well. But i cannot accept that someone's need to have a dog fitting some arbitrary narrow specification overrides the killing of hundreds of thousands of others. All that you can do with your bought puppy can be done with a dog that was not manufactured to order.

Staffies today are the result of the last decades fashion. Look out for Akitas and Malamutes in another few years.

[noel]

Sorry, but i still can't agree. It's great if someone puts in the effort of finding a healthy dog and looks after it well. But i cannot accept that someone's need to have a dog fitting some arbitrary narrow specification overrides the killing of hundreds of thousands of others.

I think this comes back the central argument of whether we consider it our responsibility or not. You do. Some of us don't. I probably do if it's easy and fits in with me.

I'm not trying to pick holes in your argument. But I'm interested by this figure "hundreds of thousands". Are there any statistics on dogs put down in the UK? Do vets need to feed into some sort of database? Also, I guess the reason behind the majority of dogs being put down is to prevent further suffering. In your experience, what's the proportion of healthy animals that make up the total number?

[simgreen78]

Longdogs,

Fair enough. I would always, and have on this thread, advocate recsue dogs first. Personally, it would be rescue or nothing. However, I'm simply pointing out that everybody has different criteria and as long as there is sound reasoning, judgement, research and consideration, I can understand why some people may opt for the alternative. Al and Nikalas have presented what I consider to be well thought out scenarios based on experience and reason. Just because I might not do the same as them does not mean that I do not respect their views. And Noel presents an equally considered hypothetical situation.

Although I don't work on the 'front line'. I can imagine how harrowing it must be. Personal circumstances dictate that we can only really manage one dog at a time but if our situation was different I dare say we'd have a house full of rescue hounds. Even so, we've been on the verge of taking on a 'rescue' Collie twice (the same one) but had to accept that we realistically cannot.

[sbrt]

is it becoz i is a staffie. Billy my mate and running partner, a recycled Staffie cross

[simgreen78]

is it becoz i is a staffie. Billy my mate and running partner, a recycled Staffie cross

He is gorgeous mate. It really bothers me, the amount of Staffies in sanctuaries and re-homing centres. My limited experience of them is of a gentle, playful mindset, and not really the supposed hardcases that I think spurs young lads into getting them as an 'accessory', and probably is an underlying reason that many end up being consequently rejected and finding their way into pounds.

[nikalas]

Sorry, but i still can't agree. It's great if someone puts in the effort of finding a healthy dog and looks after it well. But i cannot accept that someone's need to have a dog fitting some arbitrary narrow specification overrides the killing of hundreds of thousands of others. All that you can do with your bought puppy can be done with a dog that was not manufactured to order.

Staffies today are the result of the last decades fashion. Look out for Akitas and Malamutes in another few years.

I just don't think it's as simple a that and I don't think our wants of a dog were arbitrary narrow specifications. One of our overriding considerations was that the dog would be good with children. We haven't got any but, we've got god children and numerous friends have kids who are in and out of our house. Many of those kids aren't use to dogs so, having a dog that can be trusted even with non dog friendly kids, is a must. One bite, and it's the dog that gets put down. Moses has always been super gentle with children and babies. Yes, lots of this is due to his upbringing but the breed is also well known for it. Both Otso's parents are also great with kids so, as I said before, we loaded the dice in our favour. Compare this to a friend of ours who's re-homed lurcher has bitten both of their children and me when I walked it once drawing blood despite coming from a "family home". Only one example I know, but my wife and I just didn't want to take the risk.

I can't speak for other breeds but know for a fact that every Lapphund pup bred will have a waiting list for it and unless, something unforeseen happens as in Moses' case, will never find itself in a Rescue Home. That said, the breed rescue society would take it and/or the breeder be responsible for re-homing and it'd be snapped up as in the case of a 12 year old recently who's owner had died. There are some absolute horrors in pedigree dog breeding, King Charles Cavs and Syringomyelia, Rhodesian Ridgebacks and Spinabifida and GSD's and hip problems spring to mind, but many breeds are healthy, non-showy and still bred to be functional dogs. If that breed happens to be right for you and you will give that dog and happy and healthy life then that's a dog that'll never end up in a Rescue Home. The KC and Breed Societies are under great pressure to put their houses in order and desperately need to but it's largely not KC registered dogs that are filling up Rescue Homes.

The problem lies with unregulated, irresponsible or accidental breeding and would be simply solved by a national canine register. Every dog owner should have to prove themselves fit to own a dog (I like the idea of an exam or assessment), apply for and pay for a license, get the dog microchipped and, unless they're a registered and approved breeder, be obliged to have the dog neutered. If someone is found to have an unregistered dog, then they would be prosecuted. Breeders should have to apply for a licence for every litter and, prior to the mating, be able to show they have a number of prospective owners lined up.

I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on this one Longdogs but I know from previous correspondence that we do agree on the importance of responsible dog ownership and that something has to be done about the thousands of dogs that do end up without homes.