Does God exist?

[stevefoster]

Who pinned the tail on the donkey?

[Harry H Howgill]

Listening to "Thought for the Day" (I think) and this notion came out: God is existence.
When people say "of course God does not exist-what a foolish notion!" I think they are really saying "my notion of God, if he were to exist, does not exist". I can say that about a whole lot of other people's Gods. I would always argue that people who know what God is don't and can't. It's very entertaining to argue about God but if God were to be anything like a serious minded person's idea of God he/it/she would have to be unknowable.
I will not give way to anyone who suggests that existence is banal. Things may be accidental, random etc but that doesn't stop them from being utterly and unfathomably wondrous; even miraculous...
Joss Naylor on a cloud does exist.

Absolutely. Existance is in no way banal. Its bloomin' wonderful. The amazing coincidences that have had to occur for all of us to be conscious of our existance are almost unbelieveable; not quite impossible, just very very improbable. It is amazing to live at a point in history where we now understand our existance to such an extent where we don't have to resort to supernatural sky gods for the answers.

[Deadlegs]

Er, not so quickly HHH. The M-Theory is still just a theory and still incomplete and widely challenged. I find the idea of God easier to grasp than the idea of an infinite number of universes etc. Don't forget there is a book to be sold at the bottom of this and the review in The Sunday Times wasn't that glowing.
One thing for sure and that's the level of debate is refreshing and interesting. Especially the camel and donkey conundrums.

[Brotherton Lad]

You're right, HHH. We are very fortunate to live at this point in history and appreciate the amazement. But people have felt that in earlier times and it's been destroyed for them, by natural disaster or by human failings. That still happens today in less fortunate surroundings and, in those circumstances at least, God does exist for those people. It's what gets them through the night.

I saw it personally in Bosnia in 1993. It doesn't matter which god, but you realize very quickly that the people who feel that way (and, fortunately, most do at that time) are the ones you want to be with, because the others are extremely unpleasant b@stards (evil, if you will).

This is no argument for God's existence, I'm agnostic (if Hawkins, Dawkins and the Archbishop of Canterbury can't agree, who am I to say), but the concept of God has real value for many people.

I admire what Dawkins says and I like to think of myself as enlightened in the classical sense, but I wish he wasn't so bloody evangelical about it, surely religion has a Darwinian value for human society? In a future Utopia it's maybe not necessary, but we're not quite there yet.

So, I reckon I'm saying God is a human construct and has a human value, and probably will have for a fair while yet.

[CL]

You're right, HHH. We are very fortunate to live at this point in history and appreciate the amazement. But people have felt that in earlier times and it's been destroyed for them, by natural disaster or by human failings. That still happens today in less fortunate surroundings and, in those circumstances at least, God does exist for those people. It's what gets them through the night.

I saw it personally in Bosnia in 1993. It doesn't matter which god, but you realize very quickly that the people who feel that way (and, fortunately, most do at that time) are the ones you want to be with, because the others are extremely unpleasant b@stards (evil, if you will).

This is no argument for God's existence, I'm agnostic (if Hawkins, Dawkins and the Archbishop of Canterbury can't agree, who am I to say), but the concept of God has real value for many people.

I admire what Dawkins says and I like to think of myself as enlightened in the classical sense, but I wish he wasn't so bloody evangelical about it, surely religion has a Darwinian value for human society? In a future Utopia it's maybe not necessary, but we're not quite there yet.

So, I reckon I'm saying God is a human construct and has a human value, and probably will have for a fair while yet.

I disagree. There can't be any value in believing something that isn't true. I found this very honest interview on You Tube. Bertrand Russell at his best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrxSkc68Ci0

[Brotherton Lad]

That's your prerogative and, if you're lucky, you'll never have to find out.

[Harry H Howgill]

Er, not so quickly HHH. The M-Theory is still just a theory and still incomplete and widely challenged. I find the idea of God easier to grasp than the idea of an infinite number of universes etc. Don't forget there is a book to be sold at the bottom of this and the review in The Sunday Times wasn't that glowing.
One thing for sure and that's the level of debate is refreshing and interesting. Especially the camel and donkey conundrums.

I don't believe I mentioned M-Theory at any point, neither A, B, C...Z or any other theory.

I was more alluding to the amazing fact that an imense amount of factors have to come together for any of us to have consciousness. For example; I am the result of one particular sperm winning a race on one particular occasion. If another one had won the day then my parents would still have had a child, but that child would not be "me". I would not exist. And that is a concept that I find quite amazing to comprehend.

Just because a concept is more easier to grasp, (gods vs. infinate no. of universes) doesn't make it more true either.

It is always fun to have the debate though. :-)

[noel]

It's good that this thread is continuing. And despite lots of attempts to reach middle ground, it still comes back to the old lines of "yes but this is all made by God", or "yes but God is made up". I don't think any explanations of physics or apparent paradoxes in our understanding of physics will change this - interesting though it is.

Has anyone been swayed by this thread at all, from either camp? I'll be surprised if anyone has.

Which started me thinking, at what point in most people's lives do they gain their spiritual beliefs? And what would cause some people to change their minds about it?

For those atheists - what would it take for you to believe it God?
For those religious people - what would it take for you not to?

[mr brightside]

It's good that this thread is continuing. And despite lots of attempts to reach middle ground, it still comes back to the old lines of "yes but this is all made by God", or "yes but God is made up". I don't think any explanations of physics or apparent paradoxes in our understanding of physics will change this - interesting though it is.

Has anyone been swayed by this thread at all, from either camp? I'll be surprised if anyone has.

Which started me thinking, at what point in most people's lives do they gain their spiritual beliefs? And what would cause some people to change their minds about it?

For those atheists - what would it take for you to believe it God?
For those religious people - what would it take for you not to?

Religion is something people 'turn to' when they're in dire need, a bit of gentle talk and the promise of an afterlife gives hope to the needy. Threats of burning eternally in hell can land a good suckerpunch too, the church is pedalling a lot of easy answers.

[Mandovark]

Religion is something people 'turn to' when they're in dire need, a bit of gentle talk and the promise of an afterlife gives hope to the needy. Threats of burning eternally in hell can land a good suckerpunch too, the church is pedalling a lot of easy answers.

You're sure that they don't just seem like easy answers because they're actually a popular caricature of Christian theology rather than the real thing?