KIMM was devised by Gerry Charnley to "Test orienteering skills in extreme conditions" - so definitely an orienteering event.Originally Posted by Baggins
These events are not orienteering, they're a test of mountain skills, a very different thing, no need to micro navigate to find the controls.
Navigation is a large part of fell running or do people not train on the tops when the visibility is poor
Edit isn't working - should have said "extreme circumstances"
again i quote page 9 of the fra calendar
Navigational skills.
anyone competing in any of the events listed in this calendar should note that races are organised on the premise that competitors have the necessary skills to cope with navigational problems which may occur-whatever the weather!!
note that mist may cause confusion in even the shortest of events.
I`m with you on this Tim.
you`ve got to remember that the fundimentals of fell running is to run up and then down a hill/fell/mountain as quickly as possible (sometimes more than one) navigating is a bi-product of the sport, which is sometimes an necessity to achive the goal,it could be argued that its the same as good eye to feet co-ordination when decsending.
sorry but thats a load of rubbish.
fell running is about you against the elements and terrain and how you cope,
it is not about just running up and down a hill.
its a test of speed,stamina,route choice and navigating to find the best line plus adaption to changing terrain via weather and increments.
fell running is not about a hilly xc course.
Tim, I don't think it's me that's taking the piss here.
Mountain Trial = Orienteering??
If you have done either a Mountain Trial or a BOF event, then it's you taking the piss?
And, if you haven't, I suggest you do ... you'll be surprised!
No I've not, I don't claim to be any kind of authority on these events. Why don't you explain the difference to me because to my little mind the LDMT is simply a Long 'O' event, a bit like Ennerdale is a long fell race. But the one thing they do have in common is that the courses they're ran over are not pre-determined. Championship fell races, the Lakeland Classics series of fell races and the Ben Nevis race (for examples) are ran over pre-determined courses. Just because Ennerdale is a vastly different type of race to (say) Buckden Pike, doesn't mean they don't both class as fell races.
Last edited by TimW; 30-10-2010 at 11:23 PM.
Well ... an XL (extra long) orienteering event would be about a third of the length of the LDMT, and it would not be held in such mountainous country. There would be less of an emphasis on the self-reliance of the runners and more regulations for the race organiser to adhere to in order to cater for this. It would be a totally different experience.
As the title of this thread indicates, this whole argument came out of some people's dislike of navigation. The point being that most of the time you don't even need to navigate, so why have a pure navigation leg in the British Relay?
As some of the answers clearly show, some of us do like to navigate, we find it useful and enjoy the experience of finding our way in the fells. It's also been around for a long time, and in its pure form - LDMT has been on the FRA calendar for over 50 years, longer than the British Relay! I remember marshalling on the KIMM at Tibbie Shiels in 1972!
But the thing that I like about fell running is that it caters for lots of different types of runner - old, young, slow, fast, navigators, non-navigators. Nobody says that you have GOT to do the nav leg at the relay. If you don't want to do it, get somebody who likes navigating to do it. And they'll tell you ... it's no big deal.
But it is fell running.
Last edited by Rudolph Hooker; 31-10-2010 at 09:25 AM. Reason: fat fingers
I don't care what wikipedia says its not an orienteering event :wink:
One nine times mountain trial winner never used a map or compass, no way could you do that in an orienteering eventMountain Trial = Orienteering
Thankyou. And don't get me wrong I'm not some roadie who's never looked at a map and compass in his life, I regard it as an essential aspect of mountain safety and responsibility, and one of the things that sets us all apart from cross country runners. But I would find the nav leg in the FRAs a big deal, good for you if that's what you're good at!
But surely you must recognise the difference between the navigation skills required to pick the best line or take a bearing in the mist during an established fell race, or to relocate when lost from a mere safety point of view, and the skills required to think on your feet having only been handed your map on the start line and to then work out the best route, on a course no one has ever ran before!
Orienteering, Mountain Trials and Mountain Marathons all require this subtle navigating bias as opposed to fell races where (as Rocksteady put it) the need to navigate may be an essential bi-product, although at other times isn't even needed.
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