Long runs - fast?

[MP1]

Anyone I've ever spoken to or anything I've ever read says that the key to good Endurance running is to do plenty of running at race pace, not all your running, but a decent bit.

One approach that I have found really effective in developing race endurance is to embed a tempo session within a longer run.
example - based on your 3 hour target
your weekly long run might be 2hrs 15mins (3/4 of race)
spend the first 45 minutes running easy, warming up
spend the middle 45 minutes at your target race pace (or effort)
spend the last 45 minutes running steady (which will feel easy relative to race pace)

This type of long run really works for me too.
Lots of long slow runs means you run long runs slow.
Adding pace / intensity to your long runs not only means your running gets better, you get stronger, but it also develops the mental strength needed to get through those longer runs.

[itissounfair]

Hi,

I've been following this thread with interest as it has touched upon what I've been doing (or not) over the past 6 months or more. After several years of training at middlish distance at middlish effort with the regular club hill session once per week, I'd got frustrated with middle pack (if that) races, i vowed to change my training.

I've only been training at about 70% hrr, and although it was initially very encouraging, my times for my routes came down significantly and I thought I was on the right track, this didn't seem to transfer when racing ie I had exactly the same times.

Although I have persisted, I definitely at the point now where I think I need to run nearer race pace in training as what I'm doing isn't working......or is it and I just haven't stuck at it long enough?

I feel I have trained in the no man's land before and don't want to go back there! So if I am to start sticking in a tempo run.....at what rate should I run it? 80% or 90% or 95%? What I've read suggests it should be at or below threshold.....any thoughts?

[Rob Furness]

To get faster you have to train faster, not very helpful but very accurate! Try alternating between the following one day a week:-
1. A Tempo run (for me that equates to a constant effort of around 85% or above) with a mile and half warm up/warm down and 3-4miles hard in the middle.
2. Hill reps (whatever takes your fancy, but you could try a minute and a half hard effort and jog recovery, repeating up to 8 times). I currently am doing half mile reps to prepare for longer hills.
3. Mile repeats, these were the key for me for getting my times down on 10k. Warm up like a tempo run, then do 3-4 mile repeats at slightly faster than race pace with a 2 min recovery in between each one. This is a hard session if done properly but very beneficial.
4. Take a the day off or run easy for a rest

Works for me

[Mike T]

" To get faster you have to train faster " - it is that simple, surely - and you just have to work out how to fit that into your training. The longer runs need to be slow enough so that the faster runs can be fast enough - you cannot run fast if you are knackered from your long run. And of course race pace in training should be nowhere near race length. A small fraction of the weekly distance - 10 - 20% - should be uncomfortably hard - something you only enjoy in retrospect - and ideally FASTER than race pace - but this speed needs to be built up to to minimize injury risk, and the longer runs shortened at the same time so that overall you are not trying to do too much.

[itissounfair]

Thanks for the replies Rob and Mike, I'll slot in some of these faster suggestions and see how it goes. I suppose I've got caught up trying to increase mileage, but I am unlikely to be able to put in the time to get to the 'lydiard' like levels
required.

[andy k]

unfair
Since you mention Lydiard his recommendation for tempo run is 75% (to 80%) hrr, on the face of it not much higher than your 70% but probably a significant jump in terms of physiological demand.

It sounds like you may also want / need to take the next step up from Tempo effort.
This would be to do VO2 max effort reps.
VO2 max it the effort at which you make use of a maximum amount of oxygen when running.
The accepted facts around VO2 max are:
- It is the maximum effort that you can maintain for 8 or 9 minutes
- It represents your pace over a 3km race
- To train VO2 max it is not necessary to run at 100% Vo2 max pace ( and definitely not over it).
- VO2 max can be improved just as effectively by training at 95% VO2 max
- 95% VO2 max is your 5km race pace.

So - an easy way to find your training pace/effort for VO2 max is to do a 5km race.
Do you have a Park Run set up anywhere near you ?

Once you know your 5km pace / effort then you can set your reps session.
reps of between 2 and 5 minutes
equal or less recovery time (jog)
Total of about 15 minutes of effort
eg 5 x 3 minute effort - 2 minutes jog (very slow) recovery.

All reps run at your 5km pace / effort
shorter reps should not be run any faster / harder (different rep lengths are really just for variety)

[ZootHornRollo]

If you were going to get technical I'd say targetting threshold might be more useful than targetting VO2 max for almost all fellrunning.

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com...-training.html

[itissounfair]

I suppose this is my next dilemma. When I'm running a shorter distance 400m say, I'm quicker than my peers, but I cannot maintain this andmost will leaVe me in a fell race. I seem to spend most of it in a knackered plod, rather than what I call running. I suspect it is my aerobic system therefore that's relatively lame so I'm trying to figure out how to improve this. I find vo2 max a bit confusing in how it relates
to threshold, and how raising vo2 will help with medium fell races. Thanks for
The advice l'll now go and do a
threshold run

[Flopsy]

Phew!!! This all sounds really complicated!!!! Tempo, race pace, intervals, thresholds, zones, percentages, VO2 max................my head is spinning

Sort of glad I just get out and either run slow, run fast, run long, run short...mix and match really. But then I have no aspirations beyond finishing in the top half (of females in my age group) if possible and I often manage that.

Does enjoyment come into anywhere??????...........:wink:

[MP1]

If we didn't enjoy it, we wouldn't do it.
Part of the enjoyment comes from just running, part also comes from training to be a better runner, which then adds to the enjoyment of just running (only better!)