DQ the cheats

[rocksteady]

Yes i remember.
I dont think the runner persued it any further and no case was answerable.the runner was left with a loss of sight in one eye and a speech impedement due to severe heat stroke
.yes, Ken Jones was organising it then

A few years ago (2002?) i seem to remember the Snowdon race organiser was being taked to court by the relatives of a runner (i think he was injured in the race). Anyone else remember this or know the outcome? I think lack of a drinks station was one of the issues raised. Would it have been Ken Jones organising it then?

[MorganW]

Morgan,

Is your camper van for sale?

G

Graham

Everything's for sale if the price is right; otherwise "No". :wink:

[L.F.F.]

Graham

Everything's for sale if the price is right; otherwise "No". :wink:

By that reasoning, is Graham's face for sale?? :w00t:

[Graham Breeze]

Where required by the RO and/or where the conditions look dodgy I do carry waterproof kit - with hood and taped seams, as well as a hat and gloves, but not a balaclava! Whole body cover does not actually mean whole body cover!

I was reflecting on this today in PBS:

9a "whole body cover" was always meant to mean and does mean a top with a hood (not least because if your top has a hood it will not blow away like a hat can)

9b "other body cover" meant and does mean things like gloves, hat, and if the RO feels like specifying it, a balaclava.

If "whole body cover" meant hat and gloves there would have been no need for a rule 9b.

It may be the next time the FRA looks at the Safety Rules it will clarify this. The current rules have stood for decades without causing anyone any difficulty but that was, of course, BF (Before Forum).

Rule 9 also allows a RO to demand any other equipment he likes: eg mobile radios.

The approach of the FRA is to set a minimum level consistent with safety, gaining race insurance, etc and that will be implemented by RO and accepted by runners.

The FRA Committee (made up of active fellrunners and RO) will not set the bar so high or specify equipment so explicitly that the real world of fellrunning ignores its position, which is why the rules have lasted with relatively little alteration for 30 years.

[IainR]

It may be the next time the FRA looks at the Safety Rules it will clarify this. The current rules have stood for decades without causing anyone any difficulty but that was, of course, BF (Before Forum).

The FRA Committee (made up of active fellrunners and RO) will not set the bar so high or specify equipment so explicitly that the real world of fellrunning ignores its position, which is why the rules have lasted
with relatively little alteration for 30 years.

As the Grump says we are now in a different age.. like it or not we have people entering the sport from a position of almost novices and are not serving the apprenticeship or being ignorant of general know how about the hills, such ambiguity and room in the rules for common sense will have been less of an issue 30-20 even 10 years ago. I think the FRA has to think about if things need changing due to the changing demographics of the sport...

[Brotherton Lad]

As the Grump says we are now in a different age.. like it or not we have people entering the sport from a position of almost novices and are not serving the apprenticeship or being ignorant of general know how about the hills, such ambiguity and room in the rules for common sense will have been less of an issue 30-20 even 10 years ago. I think the FRA has to think about if things need changing due to the changing demographics of the sport...

That, sadly, is true. As is the fact that some people refuse to listen to sound advice, perhaps because they feel 'they are worth it'.

[Fellwalker]

I was reflecting on this today in PBS:

9a "whole body cover" was always meant to mean and does mean a top with a hood (not least because if your top has a hood it will not blow away like a hat can)

9b "other body cover" meant and does mean things like gloves, hat, and if the RO feels like specifying it, a balaclava.

If "whole body cover" meant hat and gloves there would have been no need for a rule 9b.

It may be the next time the FRA looks at the Safety Rules it will clarify this. The current rules have stood for decades without causing anyone any difficulty but that was, of course, BF (Before Forum).

Rule 9 also allows a RO to demand any other equipment he likes: eg mobile radios.

The approach of the FRA is to set a minimum level consistent with safety, gaining race insurance, etc and that will be implemented by RO and accepted by runners.

The FRA Committee (made up of active fellrunners and RO) will not set the bar so high or specify equipment so explicitly that the real world of fellrunning ignores its position, which is why the rules have lasted with relatively little alteration for 30 years.

I think what we have seen from this thread is that many experienced people interpret the laws differently. Now as you say for decades this has not been a problem but as others have said there are possibly more people entering fell races without the necessary mountain experience.

You previously accused some people of being armchair race organisers but i think the majority of people who contributed to this thread have done so not as critics of RO's but out of concern that the RO could end up in a difficult situation if something serious was to occur and a lawyer or insurance company exploited any perceived ambiguity in safety procedures.

We all want to keep it simple and just go and run in the hills with the minimum of fuss but there is a minority with the modern mentality that if something goes wrong then someone else is always to blame.

[Wheeze]

As the Grump says we are now in a different age.. like it or not we have people entering the sport from a position of almost novices and are not serving the apprenticeship or being ignorant of general know how about the hills, such ambiguity and room in the rules for common sense will have been less of an issue 30-20 even 10 years ago. I think the FRA has to think about if things need changing due to the changing demographics of the sport...

Not sure I agree with this. I well remember the floods of non-apprenticed novice runners flooding into the sport in the mid 80's running boom. In particular, I remember one young idiot who thought that you could get away with running in cotton fleece training pants or that a M&S 'rain suit' and a pair of puma trainers with a studded resole were suitable equipment for competing in the Welsh 1000 metres!!!

[Witton Park]

Not sure I agree with this. I well remember the floods of non-apprenticed novice runners flooding into the sport in the mid 80's running boom. In particular, I remember one young idiot who thought that you could get away with running in cotton fleece training pants or that a M&S 'rain suit' and a pair of puma trainers with a studded resole were suitable equipment for competing in the Welsh 1000 metres!!!

I would agree with you Wheeze. Blackburn Harriers has a long tradition of fell running with Harry Walker and John Calvert legends of the club and of fell running and I am a recent member and only get the folk lore.
But I have Vet members of the club who tell me of their tales of running Ian Hodgsons, 3 Towers and 3 Peaks with no fell experience hardly at all back in the 70s with Calvert and Walker.

They may have been experienced and high quality endurance runners but I would hazard a guess that the likes of IainR would venture that a sub 2:30 marathon was not an ideal qualification for a 20 mile+ fell race or a Lakeland test.

I don't think it's that much different these days to be honest. Most people I know taking on a challenge these days will prep by recces, prep races and training to suit before the real thing.

[IainR]

Not sure I agree with this. I well remember the floods of non-apprenticed novice runners flooding into the sport in the mid 80's running boom. In particular, I remember one young idiot who thought that you could get away with running in cotton fleece training pants or that a M&S 'rain suit' and a pair of puma trainers with a studded resole were suitable equipment for competing in the Welsh 1000 metres!!!

That's the beauty of it though isn't it.. but also why its difficult. Those 'I survived' experiences are part of fell/ultra running/climbing/hill walking. My first race since leaving school was at 22 when I bet a mate a £5 I could run the WHW in 2 days, then found out about the race, and 6 weeks later was falling asleep on my feet after 80 miles....with a resultant DNF... but it got me in the sport...

I remember one guy, a hitch hiker, doing one of Yiannis's races, Arenig Fawr, after he was picked up by a runner, talked into racing and given the gear to run...

There is a really hard balance to maintain between accessibility and safety...

In North Wales we simply do not have enough runners, 13 runners in a recent race... so for me the promotion of the sport is a no brainer issue in certain areas.