DQ the cheats

[Mike T]

9 EQUIPMENT
Competitors should arrive at races prepared to carry any or all of the following equipment:-
a. Windproof whole body cover.
b. Other body cover appropriate for the weather conditions.
c. Map and compass suitable for navigating the course.
d. Whistle.
e. Emergency food (long races).
These requirements constitute “best practice” and are mandatory at all Category A Long and Medium races.
However any race organiser is free to impose additional safety requirements (e.g. waterproof as distinct from
windproof whole body cover) and competitors must be prepared to accept such requirements as a condition
of race entry.
In the event of settled fine weather, confirmed by a local weather report, the organiser may decide to waive
some of the above requirements for races of other categories.
Organisers must ensure that whatever requirements they specify on the day are met by holding complete or
random checks before and after the start of the race.
Race organisers should be aware of the dangers of hypothermia if injury to runners causes them to stop or
slow to a walking pace. Body heat is lost quickly and in cold, wet or windy weather the onset of hypothermia
can be very rapid unless sufficient warm clothing is carried. This factor should influence decisions on the
extra equipment runners are required to carry in poor or unsettled weather conditions. If necessary the fact
that the weather creates a high risk of hypothermia should be stressed to competitors.

I really cannot see that this needs any review.
a. Is clear - this is a minimum requirement and I think if someone has a jacket without hood that shouldn't be an issue. There is the additional warning that waterproof may be requested and anyone who turns up at a race without waterproof jacket and trousers are risking not being allowed to run to start with and also risking their own well being if they get passed the ROs scrutiny.
b.Covers not just hat and gloves, but sun protection which for me was equally important at Duddon a few years ago when I was out for 6 hours on a super warm day.
It basically means be prepared and we should all do that. We have our different ways of being prepared and so some flexibility has to be given by ROs as to the different efforts that athletes make to be comfortable and safe.

We cannot start getting too prescriptive and officious or where does it all end? Do we stop someone running around a race in trail shoes instead of fell shoes? Do we insist that gaiters are worn?
Do we have to specify what counts as emergency food and how much of it we have to carry?
Do we have to sound check the whistles?

What we have is fine, generally works. If organisers have any event specific requirements like radio or mobi then that will be in the race info to start with and if the regular equipment that we take is deemed insufficient on the day, then probably the race should be cancelled.

Define whole body. If it means what most people understand by whole it would include head/face/neck/hands and 9b would be redundant. Or does it actually mean torso/arms/legs, but not hands/head/face? Does 9b mean cover of other body parts, or other types of body cover? If we need a hood in case our hat blows away, what about a second pair of gloves? If we only need windproof, does it have to be hooded? As I have said, unfit for purpose.

[Rudolph Hooker]

Define whole body. If it means what most people understand by whole it would include head/face/neck/hands and 9b would be redundant. Or does it actually mean torso/arms/legs, but not hands/head/face? Does 9b mean cover of other body parts, or other types of body cover? If we need a hood in case our hat blows away, what about a second pair of gloves? If we only need windproof, does it have to be hooded? As I have said, unfit for purpose.

What you really want is to take up Track & Field.
You'll find that they have rules for absolutely everything.
You'll never need to ask ever again ... ;-)

[Mike T]

The fewer rules the better, I could not agree more - but having rules that are blatantly unclear ......

[andy k]

. Fatter people should carry enough to cover them, but will weight less than an equal size muscly person. So, we need .......... Can anyone think of any improvements on this?

now that you've raised the consideration of fatter people,
do we need to think about the issue of thinner people?
Skinny types will be less well insulated and ought really to be made to carry an extra layer to keep them warm.

[IainR]

In my opinion a few of our PD races have the opposite problem. Overpromotion. A few odd situations have cropped up in the last couple of years, predominantly through more people turning up to run than a particular race can reasonably accomodate, or at least it expected to accomodate (regardless of race limit), both practically and administratively. We've had massive influxes of 'first timers'. From there, we run into the problem touched on in this thread and others where we have people rolling up to race but not really having any idea about kit requirements and the like. As this has occurred mainly in midweek evening races throughout the summer it is as such not so great an issue, but I sometimes worry that we have a heck of a lot of people out there with little concept of mountain craft. Not that we have 'mountains' :wink:. I feel that some of the races have suffered a bit.

It's a tricky one because it's not anybody's fault. The RO can only estimate how many runners might turn up, they don't possess a crystal ball. The runners (whether seasoned fell experts or complete first timers) are well within their rights to race wherever they want to. But how to balance it out for a safe and productive outcome for everybody?

However 13 runners for a race is at the opposite end of the spectrum. What steps do you think need to be taken to promote more in your area Iain?

I'm rambling. I guess this is for a different thread isn't it?!

re number of runners.... poor advertising... is an issue for the really poorly attended ones.

I think our big races like the Peris have suffered from changing the dates and shortening it. I was at the start line hen we were told we would run the full if the train ran, and all those who traveled from the Peak etc were pleased, and to a man dissapointed when it was shortened..as I said at the time the call was the organisers to make and understandable (even though I personally thought it wrong) but we have to understand that people won't travel for races which have a perceived reputation for premature shortening.

The Peris also clashes with the Ben and the Worlds and there are numerous other events in September. It's one of the big 3 fell races in Britain but it gets a weak field, much weaker than the other 2. And as a club I think we should ask oursleves why and look to change it. And I've won it. Would I win Wasdale or Jura? No chance.

The biggest races in Snowdonia are the marathon and the International race... then the next biggest... Pen Fell race.. (well possibly Cader is bigger though) which is a 10 miler traily race around Tal Y fan, nice enough route but its well organised, nice atmosphere, well advertised and always at the same time of year and at a quiet time in the calendar.

Also the lack of competition is a catch 22. I don't race here much as its normally a lonely run, again not saying i win, as I rarely do, but I don't get the stride for stride races I have elsewhere which I why I race, and I bet others feel the same.. easy wins are nice, don't get me wrong, but I want to race people. i think that's now a negative feedback.

[Witton Park]

The fewer rules the better, I could not agree more - but having rules that are blatantly unclear ......

Why do you question the whole body cover and not the emergency food? How far do you want them to go in being clear as you put it?

As I suggested, whole body cover to me means head to ankle and wrist ie a hooded jacket and trouser. I would expect someone without hooded jacket to have a hat. I would expect someone with hood to be allowed not to take a hat.
This is compulsory in all AL and AM whatever the time of year so even if 25C in July and sunny.

You cannot make 9b redundant because that adds the element that allows for the weather conditions so the additional item could be sun protection or cold protection such as gloves or water protection if it's peeing it down.

If you think that 9a is blatantly unclear then I think you have got issues and probably no version of these safety rules will ever be appropriate for you.

Just wear what you think is appropriate and I'm sure you would be OK.

[Dynamo Dan]

I think all the people moaning about semantics on here should be forced to carry the complete English Athletics rule book for all competitions in their bum bags - that'll learn them.

[Rob Furness]

The point is (and always has been) that people don't want to risk disqualification by having something they feel safe with, but a RO doesn't think meets the requirement because everybody seems to have a different idea about what full body cover means etc.

I'm expecting the next comment to be something about "if you need to ask then maybe you aren't safe blah blah blah blah...." which is ridiculous. We're talking about (largely) experienced fell runners who feel they know what they need to carry but have rarely (if ever) been kit checked and thus had a chance to understand what a RO is actually looking for.

I've already proposed a very simple re-wording some time ago which still leaves the rules very basic, but clarifies them slightly to avoid confusion but the arguments still ramble on with all the same arguments both ways. As far as I'm concerned, saying "it's been alright for 20years...." is very blinkered. I work in the gas industry, and if we shared that attitude there would be quite a lot of serious incidents and deaths as a result of regulations not moving with the times. As much as this can be a pain it's sometimes necessary.

That said, I no longer really care anymore. I have the kit I use for races and if someone tells me it's unsuitable I'll have it out with them directly instead of on here. I can't really be bothered debating it anymore as it always comes to exactly the same conclusion

[The Master]

This constant drivel is really boring. I only started racing on the fells in 2006, it wasn't difficult to work out the rules even as a proper numpty....I have since run dozens of races, long, short, hard, easy, in sun, in blizzards and been lost etc.....I have never struggled to understand what is required either to satisfy the rules or to keep me safe. I don't see why we should accept that the world is becoming a little bit more stupid every day...let the rest try a bit harder....it's simple really

[Witton Park]

even as a proper numpty....

at last something we can all agree on