Development of Young Athletes

[biara]

I could set off an argument here, but I'm just posing the question from an innocent position with no hidden agenda BUT, why does it have to be Lakeland AMs? Would it be more 'all-inclusive' to have some from other areas as well, if there are decent AMs elsewhere (which I'm certain there are) could it be 1 from each area plus one other. Bit like some of the FRA champs, (where the rule is 1 from S, M and L plus one other, I think). This might allow more people to be involved and if there are 'local' races fro more people there might be a larger take up. Might need tinkering but just a thought, hardest AM I have done is Noonstone (RIP!!)

[Witton Park]

I could set off an argument here, but I'm just posing the question from an innocent position with no hidden agenda BUT, why does it have to be Lakeland AMs? Would it be more 'all-inclusive' to have some from other areas as well, if there are decent AMs elsewhere (which I'm certain there are) could it be 1 from each area plus one other. Bit like some of the FRA champs, (where the rule is 1 from S, M and L plus one other, I think). This might allow more people to be involved and if there are 'local' races fro more people there might be a larger take up. Might need tinkering but just a thought, hardest AM I have done is Noonstone (RIP!!)

I think because it proposed as an alternative to the Lakeland Classics which are all ALs.

What you are talking about is basically the current U23 Champs format.

[Witton Park]

I'd be a bit worried about coaches being allowed to recommend U18 runners for M class races, even if they are 'reputable'.

Why?

We have races now that are listed as "ER" - so a RO makes an assessment and advises that.

If the FRA Junior Committee picked out 10 races in the calendar that are currently for 18 year olds and added a new category which was 18(U18) where the bracketed age was with coach consent, how would that be a problem.

Firstly the races are selected carefully eg Fiendsdale is one I suggested. Great terrain, only slightly over distance, but certainly manageable. The Half Tour, Wardle Skyline would perhaps also be ones that spring to mind.

Are we saying that coaches aren't to be trusted to use this leeway effectively if it were to be brought in?

[biara]

I think because it proposed as an alternative to the Lakeland Classics which are all ALs.

What you are talking about is basically the current U23 Champs format.

Okay my post was a bit misleading upon reading it again. I meant if you had groups of AM races, 3 from the lakes, 3 from Peaks, 3 from North east (or similar) do 1 from each plus 1 other.

[Witton Park]

Okay my post was a bit misleading upon reading it again. I meant if you had groups of AM races, 3 from the lakes, 3 from Peaks, 3 from North east (or similar) do 1 from each plus 1 other.

It depends. For the runners looking at the international scene, the lakes are in many respects more representative. There are some pennine areas such as Darwen where the moorland tracks are similar, but certainly we are not talking Winter Hill or Reservoir Bogs as the ideal races for them to take part in

For runners looking towards the English Champs, then we have the English Champs and a wide array of other races available to them. I think Lauren is looking at one thing - a U23 version of the Lakeland Classics, which she can come on and explain if that's not the case.

What I am looking for is the opportunity every now and again to take in a race which might be slightly outside what is currently allowed.

Let me give you a comparison for those who may think I'm of the "pushy" inclination.

Some of you may just have seen that a young lady called Holly Bleasdale who at 20 has just Pole Vaulted 4.87m to break the GB record again (by 16cm) and go 2nd on the all-time list indoors and 4th all time anywhere.
In Pole Vault they use the same spec at 15, 16, 17, 18....35....

There's another young lady called Sophie Hitchon from Burnley who's world junior hammer champion. She has used the ladies spec hammer since she started in the U17s which was in her year 10 when she was 14 going on 15.

Yet we limit endurance runners in FRA terms until 18 and in UKA terms often until older than 18. If you try and counter that opinion you are looked on as if you are a Daily Mail reader

[AndyA]

Are we saying that coaches aren't to be trusted to use this leeway effectively if it were to be brought in?

I actually said;

I'd be a bit worried about coaches being allowed to recommend U18 runners for M class races, even if they are 'reputable'. It opens the doors for parents to apply unwelcome pressure with potentially unpleasant and/or litigious consequences. The advantage of fixed rules, set by a third party is that they are backed by insurance underwriting and are unarguable.

....which kind of answers the question.

I coach juniors (not in this age group though) but I know that I'm simply not experienced enough to make that decision, not by a long way.

Other similarly inexperienced coaches may not be so honest with themselves or may have an overinflated opinion of their own ability/importance.

Equally, being experienced is not the same as being competent; one does not automatically follow from the other. That's not a dig at anyone btw, just stating a fact. Who gets to decide if a coach is 'reputable' enough to be trusted with that decision?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not set against the idea, it just needs very careful thought. Maybe if you had one national coach (perhaps from the UKA coaching squad) who had been appointed to adjudicate, then a club coach could apply to them for an opinion on a particular athlete. That way you'll hopefully get an opinion that is impartial and immune to athlete/parent/coach pressure.

Also; the distance that a 16-18 yr old chooses to run in training is entirely up to them. Maybe the tiny minority of runners (in this age group) that would be capable of coping with an AM event would be better served by training hard at that distance (perhaps using known race routes) and building a solid performance base, before entering these races when they turn 18.

And finally; I'd never call anyone a Daily Mail reader; that's just going too far!!

[Witton Park]

I actually said;



....which kind of answers the question.

I coach juniors (not in this age group though) but I know that I'm simply not experienced enough to make that decision, not by a long way.

Other similarly inexperienced coaches may not be so honest with themselves or may have an overinflated opinion of their own ability/importance.

Equally, being experienced is not the same as being competent; one does not automatically follow from the other. That's not a dig at anyone btw, just stating a fact. Who gets to decide if a coach is 'reputable' enough to be trusted with that decision?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not set against the idea, it just needs very careful thought. Maybe if you had one national coach (perhaps from the UKA coaching squad) who had been appointed to adjudicate, then a club coach could apply to them for an opinion on a particular athlete. That way you'll hopefully get an opinion that is impartial and immune to athlete/parent/coach pressure.

Also; the distance that a 16-18 yr old chooses to run in training is entirely up to them. Maybe the tiny minority of runners (in this age group) that would be capable of coping with an AM event would be better served by training hard at that distance (perhaps using known race routes) and building a solid performance base, before entering these races when they turn 18.

And finally; I'd never call anyone a Daily Mail reader; that's just going too far!!

I did specify a Level 2 coach. We have a system that approves level 2s to coach a group of athletes. That is approval to guide them through their athletics life. That should be sufficient to make a judgement call such as the one we are discussing.

[Witton Park]

I coach juniors (not in this age group though) but I know that I'm simply not experienced enough to make that decision, not by a long way.

Other similarly inexperienced coaches may not be so honest with themselves or may have an overinflated opinion of their own ability/importance.

Equally, being experienced is not the same as being competent; one does not automatically follow from the other. That's not a dig at anyone btw, just stating a fact. Who gets to decide if a coach is 'reputable' enough to be trusted with that decision?

and this suggests that you doubt your self, as well as doubting others. Nothing necessarily wrong with some self reflection, knowing one's limits adnd trying to learn something before applying it.
I will not do things like plyometrics - I do not feel competent to do it and done incorrectly it would put my athletes at risk.

[Witton Park]

I never realised pole vault and hammer were endurance events.

The point that I am making is that we have 2 champions and record breakers here at 20 years old that would not have been where they were had they not pushed from mid teens.
Let's look at Triathlon then - we know of the Brownlees of course - I wonder when they did their first tri?

I've seen a young lady competing in Triathlons for a while now - Sky Draper age 16. Probably someone on here will know the age rules for juniors to compete in senior triathlons, I don't. But she has taken part at 16 as have one or two other kids that my daughter has raced over recent years.

I also know a young girl of 15 who has contested the Womens Senior National Swimming Champs. Her Dad's a local fell runner coincidentally. I think she was 14 the first time.

Are those sports endurance enough for you Smiley?

[LissaJous]

Hi all, I was mixing up two separate ideas, one for seniors and one about juniors, so just to make absolutely clear:

The Lakeland AMs Series was a plan for all us V35s who enjoy that kind of race! The U20 or U23 category in it could easily count fewer races, but the idea is a real head-to-head between senior runners of whatever age that felt like it. As it was simply a fantasy idea including my favourite races, it was set in the Lakes (to which we'll have to add Cader Idris now that I'm up there almost every weekend!). There was no plan for it to have official FRA / national status, maybe think of it more like the North/South Wales series.

Comparing AMs to half-marathons brings it into perspective very well: some of the students here at Aberystwyth (where I live) are aspiring to run ONE half-marathon. The distance expectations of the majority of ~20 year olds are much shorter than you'd imagine. Think 10Ks at most!

For our (official/FRA championships) purposes, we'd want to:

1. Help bridge the gap between shorter and longer races
2. Provide options allowing athletes to pursue either distance or shorter races
3. Prevent any arbitrary/outside pressure towards longer races

If I was reworking the U23 champs I would make it 4 out of 6 races, by using the Shorts and Mediums from the senior champs, and adding two more Shorts (which could be from the U18s races, or other short races). At least one Medium to count. The extent to which (most) young athletes are put off even by the medium races is phenomenal. Using the U18s races would provide more continuity, and athletes looking at distance can go for the Longs in the Senior Champs (which a few of them already do).

If selected AMs were open to U18s (no-one is saying it would be all AMs), might it be best if each athlete applied in advance to a designated committee member? And definitely not be left for the RO to work out on the spot. Anyone without suitable fell-running experience and abilities would then easily be spotted. I think the officer responsible would be under-whelmed rathr than over-whelmed with applications!