The lost art of navigation?

[dominion]

the last FRA course I was instructong on one guy was really struggleing to use his compass...I tried his compass and also struggled. it took me a couple of miutes to realise the steel whistle attachjed to it was messy up his compass.

amongst other things. it is possible to re polarise it with a strong magnet or silva will do it.

map and compass are king gps are good fun as a back up. but they take the skill out of our sport.

Also happened on that nav course I was on with you? Brand new compass with north and south reversed.

Give me a GPS any day :sneaky:

[Beany]

I kind of like getting lost in the hills and then successfully unlosing myself. Thats a real navigation art . On the plus side, going off beam is a fantastic way to get to know an area and be much better prepared for next time whereas these highfalutin 'get your map out and navigate properly-er's never nearly have so much fun or get to see so much as me

But not always fun in races such as Gt Lakes!!

[Stolly]

But not always fun in races such as Gt Lakes!!

Haha good point. My problem though with the great lakes was that I went off the race map and couldn't then use it to get back on track. On the plus side I explored a whole new area of ground and now know it all much better for next time. What with races like langdale, borrowdale and the great lakes plus BGR recces and attempts I'm now getting to properly know big swathes of the lake district. I like to think that I know 500 square miles of the Dales left, front and sideways and at long last I'm getting to know the lakes too. Its fantastic to know somewhere that welll such that you could relatively easily get by without a map and compass

[fozzy]

It also happens when a group of runners stick their compasses next to each others to see which is right; they'll all try to point towards each other!

I think GPS watches are brilliant; I've been using my Forerunner for over 4 years now, both for getting an idea of how far I've gone and also for planning long runs as part of my Fellsman training.

It was extremely useful to be able to plan a 20-30 mile run in advance on a completely new area, just by drawing lines on Google Earth; took about 15-20 mins at most. Out on the run I could concentrate on following rather than finding my way and could maintain a much better pace. The 'return to start' feature is also very useful if you just want to run for a set distance; just press the button at halfway and it'll guide you home. Chances are you'll recognise most of it anyway.

I'd agree that compass and map skills are invaluable; gps devices are of little use in MM and other nav events when you get a map on the day. It would have been no use on the Fellsman 'cos the batteries don't last that long anyway!

But; don't knock gps devices if you haven't tried them (and I bet most of you haven't) they can be a very useful addition to your training.

Garmins are great - I use mine all the time and hate running without it. As you say, it's great for getting an idea on how far you've gone, and also afterwards for the vast wealth of data you can glean and analyse - particularly being able to export it to google earth (or similar) and work out where you went wrong or took poor lines etc....

However, I would never use it to navigate - much better to rely on map and compass. A clubmate of mine tried to do a Borrowdale reccie a few years ago partially in the clag by following the trace on his Garmin FR305, using his route from the race the year before (where he took a good route). The route took him to a crag apparently way off line. The situation was saved/resolved by another clubmate getting a map and a compass out.

[fozzy]

God knows I don't want to be controversial but...

I do agree with almost all of this thread, but also gaining experience can be quite tricky I guess. I started running in North York Moors races (where zero real navigation is required for the most part!). The next thing I did was Yorkshire Dales races like Ingleborough, Pen-y-Ghent areas where I had very little experience. Although I made sure I carried kit, map etc and I'd practised a bit I hadn't used any skills in anger. Lakes races followed such as Langdale, Grisedale and Three Shires. I'd guess I still hadn't used my kit for real, and had little real experience in the Lakes ( a little walking at most). But I wanted to race, and I wanted to gain experience. Thats how it went on...gaining experience, carrying kit but really never having the need to use it. The first time I really recall using it was Helvelyn race, predictably I got 'lost', although not as lost as some I ended up with. I did find my way back on line but had to retire. I guess I had used navigation a little during other walks I recall Fairfield was one occasion. But I guess what I'm saying is how do you gain experience in using the skills you may have aquired. I guess I've still used my compass on a relatively few occasions, some quiet hairy, but I'm pretty sure I can get myself out of trouble.

Bit long winded, sorry!!

Orienteering is great for teaching you navigational skills. As I've said before, it very quickly teaches you to learn where you are at any point in time (which is not as simple as it sounds)

[The Navigator]

According to the FRA navigation course that I went on, you also shouldn't trust your compass if you are wearing an underwired bra...Mr.Navigator, did I dream that bit or was it actually really said? Re Borrowdale, you've got to admit that two compasses pointing south is quite unusual but evidence that you shouldn't trust anything. I remember the day Stolly and I were doing a recce of Langdale Horseshoe and he was able to demonstrate his relocation skills when we discovered that were actually on Glaramara :thumbup:

No GPS for me thank you, I am still trying to get the hang of a compass and map.

A-ha!! Or was it just a cunning ploy to remove said garment??!! :w00t::w00t:

[Penguin]

i have used me garmin forerunner 401 for navigation but like some have said after a few hours it dies due to lack of power! one of the best ways that i have found to learn how to navigate is to be dropped off in an area you don't know and work your way back to a designated mark... e.g. wherever the other half left the car.
In recent years my navigation has greatly improved even more so since i run on the fells in the dark in winter.

[Johnny Foreigner]

How many Bob Graham rounds wouldn't have been completed without GPS?

[Stolly]

How many Bob Graham rounds wouldn't have been completed without GPS?

Thats rubbish I'd say - okay a gps can help pin point a summit invisible in the clag but it sure can't help you cover the ground or select the best line/trod/path or quite simply 'know' the ground. Out of the 42 summits I'd say that a gps could be useful in bad weather pin pointing no more than half a dozen of them but that the rest is all down to knowing the ground

[OnTor]

But I guess what I'm saying is how do you gain experience in using the skills you may have aquired.

Not controversial at all. you practice, simple as that. go for lots of walk/runs and follow your route on the map - get used to associating the contours and features with what you see. Predict arrival times at features, following bearings, pacing etc.
I'm a bit obsessive with navigation but that's probably too many years wandering over dartmoor and the caingorms for you