thanks martyn as ever very useful indeed and you can never waffle on enough. and i see what saying re not learning the route however the garmin is only ever intended as a back up in the bag as the last 3 trips have been in clag or white outs and just a bit of reassurance as theres a fair few bits im not familiar with yet and the night sections to come yet !!! so is the garmin maps the same as os mapping then in appearance ? and yes id prefer durability against fancy features too now too decide wether the 10 is enough or invest in a 30 maybe thanks again for your help and no doubt i may have to call on your expertise again :thumbup: