United Utilities land access

[Graeme78]

Really? Mountain biking has only really been popular for 20-25 years and the number of participants and the erosion they cause is minimal compared to walkers. The vast majority of mountain bikers don't enjoy mud plugging and will avoid soft trails if possible. Yes, there are exceptions but there's an antisocial minority in every pastime. It's also easy to point out specific trails but again, the same could be applied to scars of the landscape that have never seen a knobbly tyre. Also, a large proportion of mountain bikers ride exclusively at the ever increasing number or purpose built trail centres so, although the amount of mountain bikers is increasing, the traffic on "natural trails" is probably no more. It's sounds as though you've had a few bad experiences with a few bad mountain bikers and are tarring them all with the same reactionary brush.

I suggest you take a trip to Rivington and have a look at the damage caused by mountain bikers on the path from the belmont road.
I would also suggest a walk over Holcombe moor and have a look at the damage caused by mountain bikers leading down to moorbottom road, in at least three locations, as well as damage caused by mountain bikers on the moor itself. Mountain Bikers are also responsible for the damage caused in Redisher woods, a national nature reserve. The erosion in these areas has been caused by mountain bikers, the grooves worn into the surface are approximately 1.5 to 2 inches wide with a knobbly tread with continuous ware, which seems to come from some ignorant sods who seem to think that riding on the footpaths is fine. These areas are not hard pack they are soft moors and it doesn't take a large number of mountain bikers to do an awful lot of damage.

[nikalas]

I suggest you take a trip to Rivington and have a look at the damage caused by mountain bikers on the path from the belmont road.
I would also suggest a walk over Holcombe moor and have a look at the damage caused by mountain bikers leading down to moorbottom road, in at least three locations, as well as damage caused by mountain bikers on the moor itself. Mountain Bikers are also responsible for the damage caused in Redisher woods, a national nature reserve. The erosion in these areas has been caused by mountain bikers, the grooves worn into the surface are approximately 1.5 to 2 inches wide with a knobbly tread with continuous ware, which seems to come from some ignorant sods who seem to think that riding on the footpaths is fine. These areas are not hard pack they are soft moors and it doesn't take a large number of mountain bikers to do an awful lot of damage.

As i said, it's easy to point to specific examples but the same could be done for any number of eroded horrors that have never seen a tyre. With regards to riding on footpaths, I would argue that, on suitable footpaths at times on day when not heavily used by other users, it's fine. The ROW designations in this country were made before mountain biking even existed and there are plenty of footpaths that are 100% suited to bikes and equally plenty of bridleways that are not. The ROW and access laws in this country need a complete overhaul to reflect the changed leisure use of the countryside... until then, I'll continue to follow this code http://www.cheekytrails.co.uk/ethics.htm

[Graeme78]

As i said, it's easy to point to specific examples but the same could be done for any number of eroded horrors that have never seen a tyre. With regards to riding on footpaths, I would argue that, on suitable footpaths at times on day when not heavily used by other users, it's fine. The ROW designations in this country were made before mountain biking even existed and there are plenty of footpaths that are 100% suited to bikes and equally plenty of bridleways that are not. The ROW and access laws in this country need a complete overhaul to reflect the changed leisure use of the countryside... until then, I'll continue to follow this code http://www.cheekytrails.co.uk/ethics.htm

I agree with some of what you are saying and some of what is on your code of conduct. I would disagree with your further aspects of your code of conduct and could happily dissect to show how ludicrous somethings are .
eg. after 6pm, it's fair game, I would disagree with that given that you have no idea what you will meet, it's like suggesting it's ok to speed when no one else is around.
The closer the trail is to civilisation the more acceptable it is to ride it, again I would disagree, most of the South Pennines area is on the doorstep for a lot of people.
The fewer the amount of bridleways the more rights you have to be cheeky, maybe the land isn't great for cycling.
There are aspects which show consideration, but I rarely encounter MTBers who seem to hold true to these things, eg yielding to other users, not the case with the cyclists we saw a couple of weeks ago.

[withaY]

i bought my first mountain bike in late 1989. there was no chance of meeting another rider out on the moors/fells/ bridleway at that time. even in the boom racing years of 90-95 i cant recall meeting another bike. how ever in recent years not seeing another cyclist is the norm. the great majority never take thier mountain bikes off road , just like land rovers, as a rambler/ bike rider i think i could count on one hand the number of bikes ive met on footpaths..

however in that same time frame i have seen walker numbers multiply expotentially and the use of walking poles and aggressive soled footwear become the norm. the recent habit of walking in ever larger groups is now normal practice. i see many areas of the dales lakes and snowdonia where a bike has never ridden scared irrepairably by the boots of lovers of nature and guardians of our countryside, who would never do such a thing willingly.

however i believe in live and let live and not casting the first stone. we are all countryside users and have frankly as much right to use it as the ground nesting birds of legend.

Our leaders legislate otherwise though by default. the introduction of grants /tax schemes to help the land remain the same has meant that many sports have already being forced out of the country side and many more will follow as landowners strive in the dash for EU cash

[bigfella]

I would like to agree with you about bikes on paths etc but isn't this a slippery slope? if mountain bikers do what they want and think is reasonable then trail/quad bikers will feel free to do likewise and then 4x4s etc.

[richsund]

I sometimes wonder whether some of this 'damage' is actually that big a deal, regardless of whether it's caused by runners, walkers, mountain bikers, horse riders, or whoever the scapegoat of the moment is.
Is there any *real* harm done, other than to the aesthetics of us humans who seem obsessed by making everything ordered, neat and tidy? When I'm out in the wilds I don't expect everything to be manicured. I expect to get muddy and wet feet, and maybe have to tackle tricky terrain. If a path becomes unusable, alternative routes will evove and others will get 'reclaimed' - surely this is all just part of the way nature works.
Recently I walked up Sail in the Lake District and was confronted by a bit of 'fell fixing' which looks like the great wall of china. Is this really preferable to a natural path, however eroded it is?
Attachment 7054

[IainR]

No.. moorlands don't recover fast.. plus PR looks awful.. huge scars caused by a sport.. look at how people view 4x4ers... as a group they have isolated themselves.

But you will see plane wrecks from the war and vegetation is still sub optimal for the area.. 60 years on.. some areas, thin soils, just don't recover fast.

Plus I eally do not think the 'It was them approach helps'..

All Mbikers, climbers, runners should be in it together, as one group.. small disparate groups are weaker.

4x4ers got isolated and isolated themselves, it may have been a minority but they ignored requests, so the authorities made their trails boring.. you see it in the peak.. took the fun out of it for them.. we don't want huge tracks like they've done at Totley moss.. if you think slabs are bad you should see some other responses..

[DrPatrickBarry]

Is this really preferable to a natural path, however eroded it is?

I sort of agree with you but the other side of the argument is that people divert to the left or right to avoid "getting muddy" resulting in an ever-widening path in which undergrowth is killed off. This in turn leads to wind/water errosion. Mud in the case highlighted may not be an issue, but in the peaks and dales it would be very much so.

[IainR]

I sort of agree with you but the other side of the argument is that people divert to the left or right to avoid "getting muddy" resulting in an ever-widening path in which undergrowth is killed off. This in turn leads to wind/water errosion. Mud in the case highlighted may not be an issue, but in the peaks and dales it would be very much so.

many have short memories just how bad some paths were before the flags... they may not be ideal but its much less of a hugely eroded bog trot than it used to be...

[creaky]

many have short memories just how bad some paths were before the flags... they may not be ideal but its much less of a hugely eroded bog trot than it used to be...

I remember rosedale on the north york moors, being on the lyke wake walk route had in places developed into a huge and ever widening swamp. mainly due to people trying to avoid getting muddy. Paradoxically the shallowest bit was often the middle line

Elsewhere on the moor were sections of flagstones, in place since the monastries were the landowners, providing trods from valley to valley. Often the only indication were the single stone bridges over streams...the flags went on a bit after this then just disappeared into the heather, making it very hard to follow them. This gives me hope for the future, we tend to think so short term, give it a few hundred years, when everybody is obese and the current large numbers of geriatric walkers and runners finally shuffle off, the hills and moors will recover.

After all huge areas of the lakes/wales were scarred by extractive industries and now some people say how much extra interest it brings to a walk or run.