Sounds good Jim.Originally Posted by jtinnion
I started with local races where Nav wasn't required. But I liked it so much that I got us involved in our first fell relays for decades when we attended Bowland around 6 years ago.
Recces with other runners and then on to the PPP really refreshed my skills I did have as a teenager but had lost.
There was some intended irony/sarcasm in there!
You can't help some runners: I was marshalling at the summit trig point on the Auld Lang Syne last year and put a full run of tiger tape round the trig point to guide runners in and (more importantly) out of the check point as the route took about a 280deg turn almost coming back on itself. Several runners jumped over the tape and carried on! So not only did they not take notice of the tape they didn't take notice of the runners in front of them turning sharp right. If I hadn't been there shouting at them then they'd have continued blindly on and ended up at the head of Stanbury beck!
Hi Iain
Neither the LiRF nor the Level 2 which I also hold covers navigation in any depth as I'm sure you're aware, and neither I nor my assistant coaches on these sessions claimed that it did. And while, as I operate in an industry where we have to have proven competence at work, I appreciate the need to demonstrate competence, I have to say that we run the risk of not tapping a huge well of experience and goodwill from people who we can clearly see are competent but who haven't as yet had the opportunity to do the course and get the piece of paper.
Right now, my view is that we have a bunch of guys out running in the hills, who want to learn a bit more about it. We also have a guys and girls with a huge amount of experience but (as yet) no formal qual in teaching navigation. Some training from folks with at least a lot of experience if not an MLTB is better than having the "novices" going out with no training at all and not being able to find their way to safety when the clag comes down.
I'd love to do an MLTB, but at Mercia we don't have unlimited resources of cash, or of volunteer time. We're doing what we can with what we have. We started with zero coaching whatsoever two and a bit years ago, and we are now working through a plan year by year in terms of how we train folks up to deliver what we have identified is needed. This is a huge move forward for us.
As a result of the nav session we have 12 attendees who know a bit more than they did about using map and compass to orient themselves and follow a route. I can't really see what's wrong with that, at least as an interim position until we are able to deliver training from someone who's fully qualified.
If you'd like to share the benefits of your MLTB with us as a volunteer coach in the meantime until we can find someone from within the club and fund them through the course and assessment, we'd love to hear from you.
As for the commercial "guiding" issue, as the FRA suite of coaching courses is the only off road running coaching qual available at the moment it's almost inevitable that people will use it as a selling point. I'm not sure, but I would imagine that the benefits of the UKA insurances which apply to those of us doing voluntary leading / coaching probably don't apply to commercial work?
Best regards
Jim
Dark peak has recently put on a non certified Mountain skills course for it's members. The aim was to teach a bit of navigation, mountain skills like awareness of Hypothermia, what to do when it goes pear shaped, kit to carry, dangerous ground, etc. It was run by a qualified ML (C Betts). I had to drop out at the last minute due to work commitments as did a nurse. We will be running more. There is talk of putting it out to other clubs but I want to talk it over with others first.
If they are ML's they would be covered as long as they ran it with in the ML remit. I do commercial guided runs in the peak with a bit of hill skills/navving thrown in.
But the reality is that in many races the route is well established and anyway, the point is not "the route" it's about staying where you'll be seen and can call upon help, rather than becoming unconscious somewhere off the beaten track where you won't be found for hours, by which time it may be too late.
I live in North Germany.. but ask Sarah, she's in Mercia, an ML, experience of guiding.. we ran one day WFRA nav courses for a fair few years so more than willing to put the hours in.
Re the insurance, I think you'd be surprised.. I know of one UK mountain Running 'guide' (no qualifications at all) who was offering guided mountain running in France.. if the French caught you guiding in France without an qualifications you'd be strung up. The level of ignorance is quite scary. Insurance does cover negligence but not misrepresentation.. so acting outside the remit of the awards.. would arguably be misrepresentation.
I know of one top UK climber, sponsored climber, who was out with a mate who was a UK guide, but not Alpine guide level, and they were quizzed by the police about if one was guiding the other....
I shared my advice with Eryri, suggested as an ML they should consider chip timing for longer races and was told what do I know as I don't organise a race... its just incredible how much resistance there is to change or improving systems.
You may have improved their ability, but others may not. That's why we brought in a more structured transparent system. Even in the UK unqualified people can guide but generally you will pay at least double if not more than an ML would.
But our old insurance, before the MLTB brought in their own insurance, had a quote like 'I sign that I am qualified to the NGB required level'... so I actually think a LiFR coach could sign that thats enoughh, then do commercial guiding.. but if an accident happened I think the insurance company would walk away.
Insurance doesn't totally protect you or the client, but if their is an accident and you have various qualified guides stating that inaproproate risks or mistakes were made.. your insurance would basically be worthless if they think you misrepresented your experience to provide that instruction..
But you don't have time.. in some races, say the Peris, small field, route options.. if you are cold and wet you should get off.. not wait.. the reality is the runner who finds you will be equally poorly equipped.. they then go to a marshall.. 10 minutes away.. probably more.. then they return 10 minutes again... and probably won't have that much better kit anyway (on the Peris most marshalls have little kit...(at the Pen race we were given a bivvy shelter - again its just single skin protection)..
once cold and wet 30 minutes stationary could well mean unconcious and death. In fact I'd go as far as to say the last thing you should do is be stationary.. the gear we carries buys us time, but not much.
One of the benefits of joining a club with a long history in fell running/racing is the wealth of experience that some members can pass on to new members considering taking up running and racing on the fells. At our club this happens all of the time and includes route recce, advice and instruction on navigation, kit choice etc etc. No formal qualifications are necessary for this type of help and advice and I'm sure most clubs offer the same sort of service, indeed I think its probably one of the best ways of passing on information.
Interesting one about chip timing failure...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24519298
Not necessarily. Once not alone, a decision can be made on what to do; you are far better off if someone can assist you off the mountain.
In some cases a person will be immobilized but in a fit state to be left while help is summoned, and in others they should not be left alone, and maybe the third person on-scene would go for help, or else the pair can find a safe way out.
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