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Thread: New safety rules

  1. #1141
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    I hope you are kidding? The OMM was extreme mountain weather.. but so what it should be expected and contingencies in place to deal with it. It's a MM on the high fells in October... bad weather is a given.

    Its not about mountains heeding rules.. or taming mountains.. its not really about the mountains at all. Such statements like yours, wheezes are just cliches. Obviously everyone would prefer an informal unwritten rule book where we all just sign a disclaimer and run. Thats just not going to happen.

    Of course mountains heed no rules.. but coroners and courts do and the threat of legal action isn't just a pie in the sky threat. We had two occassions in north wales when finishers were recorded with a pen and paper.. not secured down or protected and dueto bad weather they were lost/damaged and unreadable. Afterwards the RO put on the website a request for people to submit there time and position to him... basically he had no idea who had finished. This was an evening race, the chance of being lost was admittedly low, but it was potentially a serious situation. So I do think the safety of the sport can be improved and wanting to do so in no way threatens the sport like people are making out on here.

    There will be more deaths in fell running. It will come under my scrutiny. There are now new pressures. I'm all for the sport growing but some people are turning up to races beyond them.

    I'm actually moving to the idea that rather than have ER we should also have NER (No exp. required).... so identify races suitable for novices in the calendar. At the moment the abbreviation list is so poorly used it is useless.. you see what are effectively trail races with ER or NS listed.. over use of these warnings actually makes them useless.

    My worry is all branches of the sport have different rules, BOFRA, FRA, WFRA, SHR, these new rat races.. now UK Sky running... all have different equipment lists, marshalling duties.. its a pain for runners, RO's and marshalls but more importantly I actually think it exposes RO's and the organisations to risk because if a death happened they could say 'why didn't you do what the FRA/SHR states'..

  2. #1142
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    Welfare is more about childrens Welfare, reporting systems etc. I do think safety can come under it but this all arose out of the victoria clumbje? case so each club has someone trained to spot abuse.

    I think a safety officer is no bad thing, ideally an ML experienced runner.

    Rep to UKA probably also misses the point and may not be ideal because you want someone independant to UKA.

  3. #1143
    alwaysinjured
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    Quote Originally Posted by fellgazelle View Post
    ???
    I find your reply difficult to understand and am surprised by your seemingly over-reaction to my posts. I can only assume that you misunderstand me.

    When I posted this it was in direct response to this line which I quoted in the original post from AI.
    “It is dangerous to have rules that do not reflect the real world”
    I believed that AI was trying to explain the necessity to accurately describe the situation and circumstances to which a specific set of rules apply.

    In response to this “Mountains heed no rules” was chosen as a succinct way of saying: variables such as climate, terrain and the ability, physiology, state of fitness of runners competing in such a complex and diverse environment is beyond the control of anyone.

    In my experience the mountain/fell environment has a habit of chucking up extreme situations (take the Borrowdale OMM for example) that a risk assessment team, sat around a table in a remote location, at different time might deem as highly unlikely to occur or not even consider.

    “Reflect that!” did not mean “BOOM!!” Or “in your face AI” or any other such derogatory remark. It was a direct challenge to whoever composes the said rules to accurately reflect/describe a practically infinite set of variables in a simple, concise rule, devised to function as planned, in all situations.

    In my reply to WP regarding my original post I did say “I chose my words carefully” and I meant it, as I have done here also. I don’t just skim read, pick up some keyword and fire-off at a tangent.

    I’m not advocating some kind of anarchic free-for all and well understand that guidance is required. My opinions are aimed purely at rules regarding safety, nothing else. My understanding of the application of safety guidance/regulations etc., (which is considerable but limited to the field of industrial machinery) is that prescriptive guidance can be applied to very specific situations in tightly controlled environments. As the environment and variables become less controlled and less specific then the guidance needs to offer greater flexibility in order to avoid the subject to be protected being compromised in all extremes of situation. I also understand that words such as “must” have a very precise meaning legally and offer no flexibility in the context of which they are applied.

    I believe AI has tried hard to make these points (albeit in a very roundabout way)and I believe he is technically right. Many others have also made similar comments and I have no intention of further repeating them.

    In a nutshell my opinion is that the safety guidance should offer two things:
    Enough flexibility for RO’s to choose appropriate rules/guidance for their event, course and it’s specific environment etc.

    Enough flexibility for competitors to make a judgement of their situation and take appropriate action to ensure their own safety during the event.

    I’m not judging the FRA’s work/output, telling/advising anyone how to do anything or teaching granny to suck eggs, nor do I intend to patronise or be rude to anyone. I’m just stating my opinions. If you understood me correctly first time then I apologise for this lengthy reply. If you think my posts add nothing to the debate then disregard them.

    Thanks fg. Useful explanation.

    Iain R - the LAST thing we would want is the UKA rep being alo the safety officer! The key is to get rules that work for the diversity of fell races, not compromised by conformance to UKA whose rules are aimed at a way different sport and are based on wrong assumptions of the ability to control or monitor that simply does not work on the fells. Sure they are a body whose opinions can be invited, but they have far less status than opinions from those operating similar sports to ours.

  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysinjured View Post
    Thanks fg. Useful explanation.

    Iain R - the LAST thing we would want is the UKA rep being alo the safety officer! The key is to get rules that work for the diversity of fell races, not compromised by conformance to UKA whose rules are aimed at a way different sport and are based on wrong assumptions of the ability to control or monitor that simply does not work on the fells. Sure they are a body whose opinions can be invited, but they have far less status than opinions from those operating similar sports to ours.
    I agree.. but closer links up between the FRA and UKA are now bad thing and it should be a two way process so UKA can understand the unique needs of fell running.. that cannot be anything new as UKA is sucha diverse organisation. However I just can't see how its preferable that the two are not connected.

    I also don't see why the FRA is england only.. yet under UKA.. the UK bit for me suggests it is UK wide... we then have the situation that the WA are effectively the equivalent in Wales yet with almost no fell running experience.. so then we have the WFRA.. and its more and more groups... and different rules.

  5. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post

    I also don't see why the FRA is england only.. yet under UKA.. the UK bit for me suggests it is UK wide.
    the UKA only has insurance cover for England and Northern Ireland - so not UK at all

  6. #1146
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    I know.. I just don't get why.. I can understand Scotland because the legal system differs.. but Wales?

  7. #1147
    alwaysinjured
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    Quote Originally Posted by IainR View Post
    I agree.. but closer links up between the FRA and UKA are now bad thing and it should be a two way process so UKA can understand the unique needs of fell running.. that cannot be anything new as UKA is sucha diverse organisation. However I just can't see how its preferable that the two are not connected.

    I also don't see why the FRA is england only.. yet under UKA.. the UK bit for me suggests it is UK wide... we then have the situation that the WA are effectively the equivalent in Wales yet with almost no fell running experience.. so then we have the WFRA.. and its more and more groups... and different rules.
    I presume you meant "no bad thing" not "now bad thing"
    And I have to disagree.

    I largely stayed out of the argument at the time of the union, whilst having every reason to be on the anti "UKA" side , I did not, I simply cautioned that UKA graded officialdom could never work for us.
    Races would end up cancelled due to lack of officials.

    Having seen UKA testimony the link is now demonstrably a bad thing for as long as they demand superiority rather than subservience to FRA in the relationship.

    Their expectation and misunderstanding over what is possible in reality is dangerous for all RO. I also think that that link can and has compromised FRA from speaking its own mind and expressing reservations in similar incidents if they occur again.

    It speaks volumes (at least to me) that FRA did not apparently use any and every means to contest vociferously the UKA citing of an overcount (and similar thinks like inevitable failing radio coverage) as a failure of duty when in reality the fact that several marshalls did agree with only one dissenting number (actually over by 2) is actually good marshalling for which the RO should have been commended - and a normality on a public courses where runners can come through who have nothing to do with the race. ie the marshalling was good, but made to look bad , in my view because of a difference in perception of what is really possible.
    And radios are unreliable. Even if they work at 10am, there is no guarantee they work at 11am if the temperature and humidity pattern shifts, and even less guarantee you can hear what is said in the wind! or on a mobile! You would not believe they were unreliable if you read the testimony on the matter.

    It is in my view a cultural problem , where UKA expect an RO to have and exert total control over every event and course and conditions, which cannot happen in fell running. I again ask FRA to publish that testimony to let readers make up their own mind. In my view that is not "bad faith" by UKA, but they simply do not understand our sport or the realities of fell running, and our very poor rulebook did the rest in giving them and the world a false view of it. Sure mistakes were made, and lessons need to be learned - but there was a lot presented as poor practise which was not, and UKA did not present (in my view) a balanced view at all, which is the danger for a body that does not understand our sport. If you read the police witness testimony and compared it with the UKA - you would wonder in parts of it if you were reading about the same event!. For as long as we are coupled to them UKA will be summoned as "experts" and that is a problem.

    That is only my opinion but it is shared by many others who have read the documents. I suggest others hold their judgement until they have the documents on which to make such assessment.

    Right now we are discussing rules. And to me the way the rules and expectation from them are used in court hearings is a serious issue.

    It is not just UKA who are the problem, it is athlete perception. For as long as UKA are seen to be "governing" the expectation of every road runner is to get similar support and monitoring that they have on the road (and to chuck litter everywhere!) and to expect that the risks are no more than a road race. UKA are not to "Blame" for that perception- it is in essence true of road or track running. It is the link to the different sport of fell running causing the problem.

    SHRA and WFRA have rightly chosen to recognise the problems in that linkage and plough their own furrow.

    No doubt that will be seen that my contest to the problems in rules will now be stated as motivated by anti uka as though that had any bearing. It is not. The rules were genuinely bad, which is why the coroner mentioned a breach of tracking, which should not have been stated in the rules with any such certainty to begin with. To anyone who thinks that my opinion of UKA has any bearing, I suggest they read "straw man argument" as a falacy of critical thinking.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 01-11-2013 at 11:22 AM.

  8. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamsin View Post
    It would be strange, but the people I know well on the FRA Committee are intelligent people and I am confident that Langdale will be compliant in the version to go in the Handbook.
    I agree that they are but what I'm not clear on is what their actual brief was and what parameters they were working to when they produced the first draft document. What were the requirements/expectations placed on them?
    If it was produce a set of rules to make fell running safe then its simple:- Rule 1, dont go fell running.
    But I am inclined to wonder if their approach has been to produce an ideal world set of desirable rules (by which I mean desirable from the point of view of safety) as a starting point and then to 'test' these against the knowledge and experience of ROs and runners alike and amend and adapt them in light of that. If so the debate on here is a part of that process and hopefully Khamsin you will be proved correct. Its probably a better approach than starting with the bare minimum and 'working up'- we start with an 'ideal' and then justify removal of the parts of the 'ideal' that dont work in reality. I sincerely hope that's what is happening here.

    This is all a real shame. I think as individual runners very few of us are worried about how 'safe' a race is. But we accept the need for ROs to have protection and possibly accept rules and restrictions more for their sake than for our own.

  9. #1149
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    one of the suggestions of UKA was to have marshals in sight of each other????? to have the number taking marshal stand with his back to the runners and the person shouting the numbers facing the runners....... poor marshals would be spinning like tops..
    a question..... how many fell races and what categories has Mr Tempelton actually done I'd certainly never heard of him but he was the UKA's expert witness

  10. #1150
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    I presume you mean John Temperton. I don't know what his fell running credentials are, but he's been around athletics in the North of England for long enough so he should have a modicum of a clue about fell running. The comment about 2 marshals seems reasonable. One faces the runner reading the numbers, the other faces the other listening to what the first says and writes it down. Not sure where the "spinning like tops" comes into it?

    I'm off to the National XC relays tomorrow. There are frequently comments made about the course being dangerous because of tree roots!! If that's the case then pretty much all forms of athletics are doomed.

    I see AI is back to his "blazer brigade" bashing. This harks back to the days of AAA of England rather than the present NGB. If anything the correct derogatory term these days should be "the suits" surely?

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