Ukip

[TheHeathens]

You know as well as I do that I could pull up loads of links to CBI (Confederation of British Industry) reports that stress the importance of our continued EU membership and you could probably come back with links giving a counter argument, so let's no bother

All i would say is that personally i'll go with the CBI over the UKIP fantasists on the right who dream of a lost world of global empire and believe we can walk away from the successful trading block on our doorsteps.

But wouldn't it be better if we could get a more favourable deal with the EU?

[TheHeathens]

I think that's why I didn't quote him. I would have remembered the more commonly used miss-quote.

The principle is the same though.

Further research suggests that Graham is also wrong (a misquote attributed to Guterman) and he actually said "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too"

[Witton Park]

It's difficult to have faith in sections of the electorate that are stupid enough to be taken in by a party that feeds on people's fear by making them more fearful. Of what?? Not of aliens, poverty, political crisis, but of other people! That populist message is shameful Heathens!!

I agree. So following Ed Millibands speech on Tuesday I take it you'll be taking him off your Xmas card list for saying that immigration is the biggest issue facing the UK.
On post 113 I listed just a few matters that involve the main 3 parties - there's more, many more - your reasons for being anti-UKIP could just about apply to any of them.
Even the Greens message is basically "we're doooooommmmed"

[Graham Breeze]

The principle is the same though.

Further research suggests that Graham is also wrong (a misquote attributed to Guterman) and he actually said "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too"

Not wrong. I am aware of the other documentary source for what has become the received wisdom of what Voltaire did not actually say.

Most "everyday" quotations are wrong- they are corrupted over time and misuse and if the sense is the same that does not matter too much- but when great minds are quoted by name I feel one should check what they actually did utter before using them in one's defence.

Fortunately, within fell running circles, there is little doubt on the two references I most often use, "...pour encourager les autres...." with regard to the FRA disciplinary process and, of course, "The best is the enemy of the good".

[sbrt]

It is all all a plot by Johnny Foreigner, to upset Daily Mail readers. A ploy to distract them from curtain twitching and more importantly checking under their beds for reds.

[TheHeathens]

Not wrong. I am aware of the other documentary source for what has become the received wisdom of what Voltaire did not actually say.

So you will know, Graham, that there is doubt over whether the term appears in the letter that Guterman refers to so you can't actually say with any more certainty than I can.

Most "everyday" quotations are wrong- they are corrupted over time and misuse and if the sense is the same that does not matter too much- but when great minds are quoted by name I feel one should check what they actually did utter before using them in one's defence.

Indeed, 'one' should take one's own advice.

To quote Tallentyre / Hall:

"I did not mean to imply that Voltaire used these words verbatim and should be surprised if they are found in any of his works. They are rather a paraphrase of Voltaire's words in the Essay on Tolerance — "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."

[noel]

Must be some trends that can be picked out - we've come out pretty much the same and we had similar views over on another thread, where as those calling for a 15 year old boy to be hung also voted UKIP.

I'm still somewhere near Gandhi on that test, (Economic Left/Right: -5.62; Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69) but was one of those calling for the 15-year-old boy to be executed.

Similarly, as WP points out, he doesn't consider himself right-wing, despite voting Conservative and UKIP in recent elections (correct me if I'm wrong there WP). And he supports renationalising the railways.

[Danbert Nocurry]

I agree. So following Ed Millibands speech on Tuesday I take it you'll be taking him off your Xmas card list for saying that immigration is the biggest issue facing the UK.
On post 113 I listed just a few matters that involve the main 3 parties - there's more, many more - your reasons for being anti-UKIP could just about apply to any of them.
Even the Greens message is basically "we're doooooommmmed"

If you agreed you wouldn't have voted for a party of bigots. A party so completely out of step with 'decent' public opinion on every social issue that not even your right wing press would let itself be seen endorsing them.

Milliband is right, immigration is the biggest issue facing the UK.

In Britain we actually need to 'increase' our current levels of immigration of skilled workers to offset the impact of demographic change. I'm 50 years of age and I'm now down to work until I'm 67, for those younger than me it will 70 + soon.

[LissaJous]

And he supports renationalising the railways.

Interesting example. The more logical kind of reason that some people favour leaving the EU.

The perceptual problem with the EU is closest to this IMO:

For decades the UK government has taken their pick of the more pro-capitalist/big-business EU regulations, applied them far more strictly in the UK than did other member states (because this was actually their own agenda), and yet in public they have often blamed the EU for it.

My mind is making a sudden leap to (eg) EU-wide land-reforms. It is a democracy after all. Greens to run Europe That thought will send shivers up spines shivers of excitement & anticipation

[Witton Park]

Similarly, as WP points out, he doesn't consider himself right-wing, despite voting Conservative and UKIP in recent elections (correct me if I'm wrong there WP). And he supports renationalising the railways.

I didn't actually say that. You suggested I was being victimised for my right-wing views, but I haven't expressed any views on this thread.
The only real view I have given is a desire to leave the EU which was labour party position in the past, so it isn't right wing.
But like a few other posters I get labelled right wing.

Left wing beliefs are usually progressive in nature, they look to the future, aim to support those who cannot support themselves, are idealist and believe in equality. People who are left wing believe in taxation to redistribute opportunity and wealth - things like a national health service, and job seeker’s allowance are fundamentally left wing ideas. They believe in equality over the freedom to fail.

Taken from http://idontgetpolitics.co.uk/right-left-wing

I look to the future, I aim to support those who cannot (note not will not) support themselves, I believe in equality. I believe in taxation to redistribute taxation and wealth, the national health service, JSA.

So I'm left wing.

Right wing beliefs value tradition, they are about equity, survival of the fittest, and they believe in economic freedom. They typically believe that business shouldn’t be regulated, and that we should all look after ourselves. Right wing people tend believe they shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s education or health service. They believe in freedom to succeed over equality.

I value tradition, economic freedom, that we should look after ourselves.

In reality I'm neither and I don't really accept the idea of right wing/ left wing.

The explanation above of right wing on education and health is clearly at odds with the facts. The Tories were in Govt for 34 years from 1950 - 2000 and education and health are free to all through taxation.