post brexit

[Derby Tup]

Has anything changed in anyone's day to day life.
Unless your a political activist.
Accept democracy

Nothing's changed apart from a general malaise in the market place, fear to invest because no-one has a clue what's happening and the obvious extreme fluidity in pricing caused by exchange rate fluctuation. Oh, and having to explain to overseas partners how and why the result happened and whether we will exit

[shaunaneto]

If the UK adopted the WTO model then every single benefit becomes a reality. The EU then retains zero hold on the UK. It becomes more complicated if the UK wants the same tariff free access to the Single Market that it enjoys today. Some compromises are inevitable. The approach taken will depend to a large extent on who becomes the next Prime Minister. I believe Gove favoured the WTO approach but he is very unlikely to win.

Agreed, but all considering it doesn't seem likely. Even with Gove at the helm I suspect he'd have been coerced by other MPs and lobbying.

[Witton Park]

I'm not an advocate of Theresa May, but if it ends up being her she has long held a mild Eurosceptisism and she was often touted as someone who would join the Leave side.

What does concern me is that the most positive aspect of her that anyone can point to is that she's thick skinned.
As Home secretary she is responsible for the Govt immigration policy and as has often been pointed out, we haven't even managed immigration from outside of the EU under her tenure.

The referendum result was to a large extent a vote against the establishment, our own as well as the EU. Quite strange that it brought together people like me and people like one of my best friends, who is a communist.

It is like a mass movement. It has been evident with the rise of UKIP.

It is also evident with the rise of Corbyn. The Labour hierarchy were complacent letting him on the ballot in the first place, and they let the genie out of the bottle.
Now they are trying to put it back in.

People power is on the move and it's not just here in the UK. People are fed up of the executive in walks of life.

Theresa May is very much establishment. It's very hard to be in a political party and not be, but Corbyn manages it.

I hope Leadsom gets in, although I doubt it. I think she may well bring a fresh approach.

[Wheeze]

In response to Noel's response to Wheeze

Border control back in our hands I get this, but I don't think it will help. Incidentally immigration is higher from non-EU countries currently!
The key is control. The current Government and the previous coalition didn't manage the non-EU element properly.
All future Governments will now have the option to manage immigration properly. They will be able to go to the electorate with an immigration policy. They will be able to adjust to the demands of our economy.
They will not be able to use the free movement as an excuse.
Membership fee saving I get this, but think this will be more than off-set by economic losses and lost tax income as a result of leave.
It may be lost in the whole budget, but it is important to note that now we will have more control. I actually think the payments to the EU were one of the minor distractions as in the scheme of things its the equivalent of an average household cancelling a pint of milk a day.
Preservation of democracy and sovereignty I get this and agree.
I'd actually say we are reclaiming democracy and sovereignty that we have previously ceded to the EU.
Opening up of global markets Good luck with that.
This is one of the key points in my mind.
The EU has negotiated very few trade deals of any note. They refer to 53 that are in place. Only around half of them are "free trade" deals.
These existing 53 deals list Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Andorra, Faroe Islands, Sam Marino....so they are over-egging the pudding a little.
South Korea is the most notable and is the 11th biggest economy in the world.
Not only is the EU poor at negotiating trade deals, but it also has a tendency to focus on areas of trade that are more favourable to the continent.
So having the freedom to negotiate on our own means we can make deals that suit us and our economy.
Noel - you say good luck with that, but we already have had approaches from several countries and assuming we go through the Brexit process by end 2018, we will already have worked out some trade deals ready for when we come out.
Take full advantage of position as 5th largest global economy Ditto
People want to trade with us. South American countries find it very difficult at the moment as do many of our Commonwealth colleagues.
I actually think opening up trade links with some of these countries will be more effective than our overseas aid budget.
Preservation of military freedom I get this, but don't agree we didn't have it anyway.
It was at risk. I watched a Romano Prodi interview the Friday after the referendum. He said it was a shame to lose the strongest armed force in the EU just as they were going to establish the EU defence force.
Only UK, Greece, Estonia and Poland of the EU nations in NATO, meet their 2% of GDP spend.
If they do set up an EU defence force, they will undoubtedly double count the spending and this will chip away at the standing of NATO.
The US accounts for about 75% of NATO spending and we keep being told about how the EU is now bigger than the USA in terms of GDP, so this is just unacceptable.
The EU nations need to pull their weight and they should do this within NATO.
I have to add though, that our armed forces have been run down. The discussion today around Chilcot makes it clear that we went in to Iraq with an under-resourced armed force.
Having an armed force can be put to a lot of positive benefit such as we saw with the Ebola outbreak and the Tsunami response a few years ago.
I would like to see our Navy in particular expanded and playing the role of humanitarian support as well as important logistical armed backup and used as a force for good around the world.

Reduction of restrictive legislation on business I get this. However, from my perspective the EU was the workers friend and a helpful counter to the excesses of less progressive UK governments
I'm not sure what you mean Noel - the workers friend?
Since we joined the EU I have seen:
A watering down of the guaranteed payments system for workers on short-term lay-off.
An increase in part-time working and zero hours contracts.
A decrease in the premium rates paid for working unsociable hours.
An increase in weekend and unsociable hours working.
A more difficult regime for workers to challenge employers.
In many countries in the EU, unemployment is extremely high and the Euro is stifling the ability of any nation to devalue out of the problem, forcing extreme austerity on the countries, whilst many in Northern Europe thrive with a Euro that should be higher for them.
In terms of legislation, simple things such as an EC Sales List that I as a one man band have to fill in for every sale I make to an EU VAT registered business. It is actually more onerous for me to sell to an Italian company than a Malaysian one.
We go above and beyond EU legislation.
Self determination of legal and financial management From what I understand, legal is a separate issue, not directly related to our membership of the EU. I agree our financial markets could be unshackled by less restrictive UK governance. I'm not sure if this would be a good thing.
It's not so much less restrictive Noel, but it is legislation that works within our legal system. Our common law system works differently to the European civil law systems.
One of the main reasons put forward for the UK attracting investment in to the EU has been the legal system as the Commonwealth and the USA are almost all based on the same legal system and they have a distinct mistrust of the European systems.
Reduction of internal security risks. I get this and agree
I agree, but think it is marginal.

Dear Mr Witton Park. This post has triggered an automatic top secret alarm within the deeper recesses of Moot Hall. This alarm is known as AIULPA, standing for Always Injured Ultra Long Post Alert. Please be advised that your forum name and number have now been logged and any subsequent triggering of the AIULPA will result in the automatic permanent suspension of your forum account (including any or all sock puppets).

[Wheeze]

Idiots. Agreements will.not be deconstructed retrospectively.

Sorry, was 1 bottle of Merlot down when I posted this.....drowning my Euro 2016 sorrows!
Never my intention to be rude. What I meant was that any one here under current rules will not be affected by any future change in immigration rules. Now, of course, if another nation decides to withdraw public funding for someone to be here, that's an entirely different matter. But if we keep our institutions and industries truly competitive we should still be attracting the cream of scientists to come here....not just from the EU but the rest of the world.

[mr brightside]

Looking for direction and a means to get there isn't "flapping" you cheeky wotsit. I dread to think what youre like when you ask directions on foreign holidays if you think it is!

En vacances? Monsieur...ou et le gare de nord s'il vous plait? Sacre bleu! ce n'est pas dans ma derriere! pensez-vous tres drole? les francais- vous etes toujours cheese eating surrender monkeys!

[mr brightside]

Well said, mr b.

I've thought for some time that the big democratic deficit was between Brussels and the British public. It would appear that the big democratic deficit is amongst the British public themselves.

Reasons?

Partly, I think the Labour Party was in government for too long. The centrist wing of the Labour movement grew too complacent thinking that it had done its job and took its eye off the ball. This led to the resurgence of the career agitators and the professional whiners and before you could say "John Smith's your uncle!", all of the good work done between 1985 and 2010 was undone at a stroke.

It's sad that in 21st century Britain, marching and protesting against the result of a general election / referendum is now seen, by a sizeable minority of the British electorate, as a perfectly normal and natural thing to do.

Secondly, social media may be partly responsible as well. Everybody lives in an echo chamber nowadays. The opposite view isn't argued with because it's never even seen. How many times have I read "but no-one I know voted Leave!"?

Which brings me to my third and final point. Why were the polls so wrong? The only poll that accurately predicted the result was the one done by Leave.EU on the eve of the poll. I don't know anything about their methodology but I can imagine that "Shy leavers" were to blame for the discrepancies in all of the others.

When people are embarrassed to reveal their voting intentions because they feel it's socially unacceptable (see the social media point above) then the socially acceptable point of view will appear to be more prevalent than it otherwise is, which will cause more people to conceal their true intentions which will cause ........... it's a 'Spiral of Silence' and it's very worrying for British politics.

We also live in a society of 'i have rights', and 'i have the right to...'. Many people will think they have the right to overturn the vote because they believe it went the wrong way. It's a poisonous and narcissistic mindset that has come out of claims culture, and the same one that is responsible for junk food eating and a lack of discipline in schools. I think it'll get messier too- if the next economic crash paralyses the banking system it'll be, 'i have the right to my benefits payment' and looting will ensue.

[shaunaneto]

We also live in a society of 'i have rights', and 'i have the right to...'. Many people will think they have the right to overturn the vote because they believe it went the wrong way. It's a poisonous and narcissistic mindset that has come out of claims culture, and the same one that is responsible for junk food eating and a lack of discipline in schools. I think it'll get messier too- if the next economic crash paralyses the banking system it'll be, 'i have the right to my benefits payment' and looting will ensue.

Bit harsh to describe Nigel Farage as having a poisonous and narcissistic mindset
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

For what it's worth I don't have a problem with people continuing to agitate for the political result they want, that's how democracy works, everyone has a right to an opinion and has a vote* to further that. One side losing doesn't justify censorship of opinion. Even if it was two thirds remain I'd consider it right and proper for those that wanted to leave to retain their right to want that.

As stated before, if you want stability and decisiveness. Go and convince people, don't sit there bashing out insults whilst trying to justify political censorship. Opinion is split enough, sneering will not help.

*unless you own a chain of media outlets, when you effectively have lots of votes

[shaunaneto]

This seems pertinent

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36642662

I pointed this out to a remain voter to which her respons was "well, they are all idiots"

Treating people like idiots doesn't get them on board!

[Witton Park]

One side losing doesn't justify censorship of opinion. Even if it was two thirds remain I'd consider it right and proper for those that wanted to leave to retain their right to want that.

As stated before, if you want stability and decisiveness. Go and convince people, don't sit there bashing out insults whilst trying to justify political censorship. Opinion is split enough, sneering will not help.

*unless you own a chain of media outlets, when you effectively have lots of votes

I agree with you and at General elections for example, the losing party doesn't go away and sulk for 5 years as Hislop pointed out on QT last night.

However, they do tend to accept the result, look at their case that they put forward, analyse why it didn't convince the electorate and come back with a fresh approach and ideas, whilst maintaining a philosophy. Whilst a losing opposition does still make an effort to hold the new Govt to account, it is usually at least a couple of years before they renew their policies and start putting new manifesto ideas forward.

The over-whelming response to this referendum is as you have said "snearing".

I watched "This Week" last night and David Lammy was having a moan about 37% of the electorate taking us out of the EU.
Just looking at previous examples:

1. Scottish Devolution in 1997 was carried by 44% of the electorate on a 60% turnout.

2. Welsh Devolution in 1997 was carried by 25% of the electorate on a 50.1% turnout.

3. In 1975, 43% of the electorate kept us in the EEC on a 65% turnout.

So we have a precedent in this country for accepting the majority of those that turnout.

I actually think that is the correct way. Views such as Lammy's are assuming that if the abstentions were forced to vote they would have changed the result.

There's actually no evidence for this and I doubt it is the case.