post brexit

[Stolly]

Ahem!
The woolly one (shaunyshaun) and I do our bit. It might only be, taking the pish out of the Hate Mail readers and the Far/alt right.

Like First world war generals, we are right behind you Stolly. Maybe 50 or 60 miles behind but it's the thought that counts

Haha, support duly noted

As for GB, I think he'd probably had a few snifters. He positively dripped sarcasm though...

[sbrt]

If you are of Daily Mail (only for the Pale) right-wing tendencies, please don't watch any of Mr Pie's other rants. It may cause hyperventilation or damage to bile ducts

[sbrt]

Haha, support duly noted

As for GB, I think he'd probably had a few snifters. He positively dripped sarcasm though...

Not a bad effort @ sarcasm, for a silver surfer

[Witton Park]

I won't continue the 'debate' Richard (I won that ages ago ) but just scoot back through the posts on here - the forum on the whole is clearly somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. I thought I made some interesting points but I can't see anybody else obviously supporting me unless support is saying nothing . On the other hand quite a few of you brexiteers challenged me.

As for the guy in that video, he shouts and swears and makes no points at all. In a nutshell he argues that people should have 'reasoned' with those with right wing views. The whole point both here and in the US is that those supporting the right totally ignored 'reason'

The guy in the video has one central point, that the centre left has tried to close down the debate for the last 20 years or more, an example of which would be some of the sanctions on debating at student unions. This has lead to the rise of "none of the above" type of electoral support for Farage, Trump, Le Pen and a host of others around Europe, and including really the current Labour leadership here.

Your right wing view of forumites is quite strange really as at times, especially around General Elections, I've felt that the forum has been a bastion of socialism.
I think it just goes to underline that the issue of right and left is blurred, and especially on the EU. I know many socialist and communist left wing activists that supported Brexit, as indeed did Corbyn and McDonnell until recently.

Wings.jpg

Here's was a slightly tongue in cheek chart I drew up in a debate a couple of months ago and whilst it was meant to have a humorous side to it, I do believe the U shaped representation of the wings of politics has credibility.

[Mike T]

Interesting that the word of the year is "post-truth" - a similar concept is post-debate - opinions matter more than truth; debate is pointless as opinions are fixed.

[Stolly]

On your left and right wing point WP, there has been a big move of the working class, poorer vote towards the extreme end of the right (its okay I won't yet call them fascists ). They would've have been core (hardcore?) left wing voters not so long ago. That's where many of the immovable and, never mind the facts, unpersuadable votes for brexit and Trump have come from. Somebody's quote, but I can't remember whose, goes something like 'our ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'* and that's just how I think these people think. Its ironic that Douglas Carswell left the conservatives and joined UKIP just as it jumped its core vote away from right wing ex-tories and concentrated on ultra right wing ex-labour voters.

*Just looked up the quote, it was Isaac Asimov: “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge”

[Stolly]

I also think that the government's austerity (as well as shareholder/shareprice driven austerity imposed on big business) has really helped nurture all of this. Government and companies employing and discarding employees at the drop of a hat and dodgy businesses exploiting cheap, largely immigrant driven labour with zero hours and pretend self employed contracts. Added to that government welfare spending also being cut to the bone at the expense, to a huge extent, of very vulnerable people. The austerity policies of Cameron and Osbourne came back big time to bite their bum on brexit.

Edit. I'd no sooner posted that than this story came out on the BBC

[sbrt]

Never mind, the right-wing needing thicker skins
Remainers and those to the left of centre, need bulletproof and stabproof vests.

[Witton Park]

Never mind, the right-wing needing thicker skins
Remainers and those to the left of centre, need bulletproof and stabproof vests.

and that's just to protect them from themselves

[Witton Park]

I also think that the government's austerity (as well as shareholder/shareprice driven austerity imposed on big business) has really helped nurture all of this. Government and companies employing and discarding employees at the drop of a hat and dodgy businesses exploiting cheap, largely immigrant driven labour with zero hours and pretend self employed contracts. Added to that government welfare spending also being cut to the bone at the expense, to a huge extent, of very vulnerable people. The austerity policies of Cameron and Osbourne came back big time to bite their bum on brexit.

Edit. I'd no sooner posted that than this story came out on the BBC

You make some fair points Stolly. Governments of the last 25 years have skewed the system.

We now have a situation where an employer can pay two part-timers $150 each £300 is the PAYE bill, but if they pay one full-timer £300 then it costs them £340.

That drives part-time work, zero hours contracts, and it also adds to the welfare bill as the two part-timers will draw more in support than the full-timer.

Governments never create jobs, as they like to pronounce, but they can create an environment and if they took a few small measures:
Flat rate employers NI from £1 upwards at say 10% they would remove the incentive for employers to employ part time workers.
Max 3 months on a zero hours contract then mandatory contract based on average hours of the 3 month period.
Max 10% of workforce on zero hours contracts.

I don't actually think the working class has moved. I think the parties have moved and left them devoid of any representation and that is why we saw firstly the BNP step in and then latterly UKIP here and we see it elsewhere in the western world