New political party?

[Muddy Retriever]

What do you mean “the EU doesn’t work”? It’s got 27 nations working to shared values, it’s doing great things to minimise or avoid future conflict between those nations, it has full freedom of movement between nations, a relatively common currency and full open borders for trade on a common basis. It is investing in the poorer nations to ultimately all be able to share fully in its success.

You are obviously an EU idealist but unfortunately your idealism is not matched by reality.

I actually think in its first thirty years the EU was broadly a force for good. It brought together old foes in the shape of Germany and France. Economic cooperation does generally reduce conflict. But as integration has increased so the cracks have appeared. The euro was a huge mistake when no political or bank union existed. The cart was placed before the horse.

The result has been catastrophic for much of Southern Europe with a lost generation of unemployed. In Greece GDP fell by a whopping 25%. You might argue that some of the countries were responsible for their own downfall and I would have some sympathy with that. But the euro strait jacket has meant there was no means to escape from their economic woes. A bankrupt country with its own currency would have it devalued pretty quickly, instantly boosting exports. It would be free to control its own monetary policy - interest rates, QE etc. Finally it could normally expect an IMF bail-out, which while involving some austerity would also involve a debt write-off. Instead the Greeks have just had crippling austerity as the the EU moved to save French and German banks from their losses.

Italy is nearly as bad, having had next to no growth since the inception of the euro. For sure Italians weren't blameless having gone into the project with a very high debt to GDP ratio. But Italy, which has traditionally had a very strong industrial base is seeing this being whittled away as it competes at an exchange rate very favourable for Germany but not for them. All the while being dictated to by the EU about their fiscal policy. Italians finally had enough and voted for populist parties who now control the Government.

What will happen to these fragile eurozone economies when the next global downturn comes? It does not seem that far away.

This is hardly the Europe you describe.

[DrPatrickBarry]

Excellent case of arguing against your own Thesis there. So Italy can fix all their problems by adding more zeros onto their Liras. And the Greeks can continue denying that to have a functioning society the government has to balance it's books, with realistic spending and people paying their taxes.

The EU/Euro really brought their deep-seeded problems to the fore, it did not cause them.

[Stolly]

You are obviously an EU idealist but unfortunately your idealism is not matched by reality.

I actually think in its first thirty years the EU was broadly a force for good. It brought together old foes in the shape of Germany and France. Economic cooperation does generally reduce conflict. But as integration has increased so the cracks have appeared. The euro was a huge mistake when no political or bank union existed. The cart was placed before the horse.

The result has been catastrophic for much of Southern Europe with a lost generation of unemployed. In Greece GDP fell by a whopping 25%. You might argue that some of the countries were responsible for their own downfall and I would have some sympathy with that. But the euro strait jacket has meant there was no means to escape from their economic woes. A bankrupt country with its own currency would have it devalued pretty quickly, instantly boosting exports. It would be free to control its own monetary policy - interest rates, QE etc. Finally it could normally expect an IMF bail-out, which while involving some austerity would also involve a debt write-off. Instead the Greeks have just had crippling austerity as the the EU moved to save French and German banks from their losses.

Italy is nearly as bad, having had next to no growth since the inception of the euro. For sure Italians weren't blameless having gone into the project with a very high debt to GDP ratio. But Italy, which has traditionally had a very strong industrial base is seeing this being whittled away as it competes at an exchange rate very favourable for Germany but not for them. All the while being dictated to the EU about their fiscal policy. Italians finally had enough and voted for populist parties who now control the Government.

What will happen to these fragile eurozone economies when the next global downturn comes? It does not seem that far away.

This is hardly the Europe you describe.

.

Grappling with the EU and bringing in such a diverse range of different countries is a truly difficult thing to undertake and was never going to be easy and without big difficulties along the way. But the long term aspirations and vision of it all is fantastic and it’s definitely worthwhile. On the other hand ducking out, not liking foreigners and not being bothered isn’t....

And let’s not forget the devastation wreaked on various parts of our own country by past U.K. politicians either. And as for the future, Honda employees and sub-contractors in Swindon have already been dumped and who’s to say the same won’t happen for Nissan and Sunderland.

[Muddy Retriever]

And as for the future, Honda employees and sub-contractors in Swindon have already been dumped and who’s to say the same won’t happen for Nissan and Sunderland.

Except Honda itself said that the closure of their plant was nothing to do with Brexit. But of course I accept that you Stolly know much more about it than Ian Howells, the senior vice president for Honda in Europe. He explicitly said that it was not a Brexit related issue.

Honda said that the move was ‘in response to the unprecedented changes in the global automotive industry. The significant challenges of electrification will see Honda revise its global manufacturing operations, and focus activity in regions where it expects to have high production volumes.’

Their growth area is no longer Europe but elsewhere in the world and in particular south east Asia.

It's quite ironic that people like you go on endlessly about "lies" made by the Leave campaign but are very happy to come out with blatant dishonesty yourselves.

[Stolly]

Except Honda itself said that the closure of their plant was nothing to do with Brexit. But of course I accept that you Stolly know much more about it than Ian Howells, the senior vice president for Honda in Europe. He explicitly said that it was not a Brexit related issue.

Honda said that the move was ‘in response to the unprecedented changes in the global automotive industry. The significant challenges of electrification will see Honda revise its global manufacturing operations, and focus activity in regions where it expects to have high production volumes.’

Their growth area is no longer Europe but elsewhere in the world and in particular south east Asia.

It's quite ironic that people like you go on endlessly about "lies" made by the Leave campaign but are very happy to come out with blatant dishonesty yourselves.

You know that is bollocks. Yeah globally the motor trade is changing but it always has been and always will be changing. Japan signing a massive trade agreement directly with the EU is also a massive factor but, ironically, had we still wanted to be in the EU, Honda will have still had factories fully up and running and nearby in the U.K. to trade with the eu and would’ve most probably continued to operate them. Now though, with that option probably closed, and with the ability to trade direct from japan they don’t need to. Japan was just looking to avoid loss of face (for the U.K.) and soften the blow by announcing that Brexit hadn’t been a direct influence. Clearly it was a massive indirect influence though

[Muddy Retriever]

.

Grappling with the EU and bringing in such a diverse range of different countries is a truly difficult thing to undertake and was never going to be easy and without big difficulties along the way. But the long term aspirations and vision of it all is fantastic and it’s definitely worthwhile. On the other hand ducking out, not liking foreigners and not being bothered isn’t....

You can't answer my points can you about the inherent flaws of the euro? What you fail to see is that bringing in such a diverse range of countries in the euro is precisely why it shouldn't have been done. It could never work for that reason. Italy cannot compete with Germany at the same exchange rate. In a country with its own currency poorer regions receive fiscal transfers from richer regions as compensation. But there is no such mechanism in the eurozone. There is no political union to enable this to happen. It should have already existed before attempting to create a common currency. Even then there would have been no guarantee of success because of the lack of common institutions.

But at least you are able to fall back on your tried and trusted nonsense about leavers not liking foreigners.

[Muddy Retriever]

ironically, had we still wanted to be in the EU, Honda will have still had factories fully up and running and nearby in the U.K. to trade with the eu and would’ve most probably continued to operate them.

So that been the case then, why haven't they decided to relocate to a neighbouring EU country?

The only reason you won't accept Honda's detailed explanation for their move is that it doesn't fit in with your narrative of companies fleeing the UK because of Brexit. Honda say it is nothing to do with Brexit but what do they know about it? You know better.

[DrPatrickBarry]

Italy cannot compete with Germany at the same exchange rate.....

What nonsense How about replacing Italy with Ireland.

When Ireland joined the EU and then the Euro it was decades behind mainland Europe in economic and social development. It is now one of the leading lights in Europe. The same can be said of many other small European and former Eastern Block countries.

Why is that? a combination of EU financial support and taking the hard medicine as shown by Ireland's peformance since coming out of the bailout.

The solution to these countries' problems lies very much within their own borders.

[Stolly]

So that been the case then, why haven't they decided to relocate to a neighbouring EU country?

I don’t think they have any car production plants already up and running elsewhere in the EU (lawnmowers and motorcycles yes but not cars). And if so, that’s why

[Muddy Retriever]

I don’t think they have any car production plants already up and running elsewhere in the EU (lawnmowers and motorcycles yes but not cars). And if so, that’s why

If they'd really wanted a presence in Europe then they would have created one.

The plant in Swindon was already well below capacity and in general the car industry is in crisis in Europe. Honda's growth markets are in Asia.

Why do you know better than Honda themselves?