Brexit

[noel]

Oracle, you say those Tory pro-no-deal MPs are only saying "let's leave without a deal" to increase our bargaining power to get a better deal. Whereas a lot of people including other MPs in their own party, who've known and worked with them for year, don't agree and think the ERG really want to leave without a deal. That's why they've now voted to avoid that. I think I believe them and not you.

Having already brought down four leaders over Europe, the Tory party seem intent to continue to tear themselves apart over Europe. I wonder if the lack of a credible opposition is partly to blame. I suspect there would be more of a call for unity if they were 20 points behind in the polls. They seem to forget their real audience is the public, not their colleagues in the party.

[Travs]

University accommodation is a massive growth here in Coventry.

If you drive on the elevated ring-road and look across the skyline, there is lots going on, but the fact is that 90% is simply tower blocks for housing university students.

Nothing particularly wrong with that... but it seems a shame to me that Coventry seems to now be nothing more than a 'student city', with very little development that isn't in some way related to this.

[Stolly]

In reply to Piers Morgan being a dick (as usual) and announcing on Twitter that no deal is Brexit and that no deal was exactly what was voted for at the referendum, the most detailed and informed response ever. Go on all you pro-no deal brexiteers, I dare you to read it 😉

https://twitter.com/emporersnewc/sta...300842497?s=21

[DrPatrickBarry]

Some of the comments lower down are probably the most important. Piers Morgan, along with many other idiotic Brexiteers will just stick his fingers in his ears and go La, La, La, when somebody tries to hightlight how wrong they are.

[Stagger]

La la la
Out out out

[Witton Park]

University accommodation is a massive growth here in Coventry.

If you drive on the elevated ring-road and look across the skyline, there is lots going on, but the fact is that 90% is simply tower blocks for housing university students.

Nothing particularly wrong with that... but it seems a shame to me that Coventry seems to now be nothing more than a 'student city', with very little development that isn't in some way related to this.

and a 3 bed terrace in Earlsdon my daughter stayed in when at Warwick, that would typically have a market value of between £150K and £200k or rentable for £500-£600 per month, was converted to 5 bed student accomodation with facilities, poorly furnished and equipped, taking £1800 per month for 10 months Sept - June each year from 5 students.

[Witton Park]

Oracle, you say those Tory pro-no-deal MPs are only saying "let's leave without a deal" to increase our bargaining power to get a better deal. Whereas a lot of people including other MPs in their own party, who've known and worked with them for year, don't agree and think the ERG really want to leave without a deal. That's why they've now voted to avoid that. I think I believe them and not you.

Having already brought down four leaders over Europe, the Tory party seem intent to continue to tear themselves apart over Europe. I wonder if the lack of a credible opposition is partly to blame. I suspect there would be more of a call for unity if they were 20 points behind in the polls. They seem to forget their real audience is the public, not their colleagues in the party.

It's not necessarily to increase our bargaining power to get a better deal Noel.

If you look back to article 50 and the understanding or interpretation of it by all sides pre referendum and up to invoking it, that interpretation was such that the expectation was that by the end of the A50 2 year period we would have both sides of the agreement ready to approve.

The Withdrawal element ready to sign prior to leaving and the after part "signature ready".

The Government said as such and the opposition understood that to be the case.

The concern at the time was that the Commons would not have sight of it and be able to debate and approve it.

That was the origin of the meaningful vote, for Government to bring both sides of the deal to the Commons.

A huge issue for many on both sides is that the future bit is:
a. not firmed up
b. not legally binding
c. agreed mostly between politicians that will not be in place by Autumn as we will have a new commission, a new EU Parliament, a new Council President.... and maybe a new Prime minister and Government.

The EU have pushed this, saying they cannot agree to the future relationship in any detail until we have left.
That's not quite what Barnier was saying 20 months ago, when he said it was possible to have a trade deal ready to sign and that was his aim.

So what some Tory MPs are saying, and I agree with them is:

1. We have caved in at each pinch point rather than keep talking until were are happy to move on.
2. That means we have a less than satisfactory Withdrawal Agreement giving away too much.
3. That is why we have a less than satisfactory future declaration which doesn't give enough information.

Those 3 points are actually widely agreed across the Commons, and why the Govt has been defeated now 3 times.

The remedy is the problem.


The remedy is different depending on your position.

For lifelong leavers they need amendments to the WA and it was approved in the Commons under the Brady Amendment.
That is the only majority vote for any course of action.
The EU say they won't re-open the Withdrawal Agreement. That's rather odd, it is a draft, that has still not received final and full approval, and as with CETA which was vetoed by a Belgium assembly, the EU know that they could re-open it if they wanted to.

The remedy for Remainers is a 2nd vote, because it is the only way for the direction of travel they want, which is to Remain.

and their lies the problem. COMPROMISE say the likes of Lucas, Soubry, Grieve, Leslie, Umuna, the SNP…. but in all the 8 & 12 indicative votes that took place in the last week, they did not vote for any of the so-called compromise solutions.


My take on this is quite simple.

I want a version of leave that does not bind the hands of future Governments. I am concerned that we are moving from a situation we can leave on April 12th, to a situation we cannot leave because we've signed an international treaty.
The Agreement could be harder to leave than the EU.

So for me, I would rather Remain than sign this Withdrawal Agreement. Because if we Remain for now, we still have the option to Leave with what I call a Clean Brexit.

If we leave without an agreement, there is a school of thought that we will still in the end reach an agreement.
If we leave on April 12th, the EU can then talk to us as equals and agree future issues as we will then be a 3rd country.
Already some provisions are in place to cover such an outcome.
WE could still leave the £39 Billion there on the table, and see if they want to talk.

A new commission, council, Parliament will not have any face to save and I think it would be likely to happen.

[Travs]

Yes Earlsdon is certainly 'student central'

My house in Bedworth (a nice, fairly modern 1 bedroom semi in a nice quiet cul-de-sac) has a rental value of around £500 per month.

My ex-girlfriend lives in Earlsdon (5-6 miles from me), and her house, very similar in size and facilities as mine, but with no garden, and on an apartment block... her rental was closer to £900 per month.

[DrPatrickBarry]

Why has this thread diverged to student rents? What are they ment to do? Don't go to university, or are only allowed to go to one that is commutable from their parents house.

So many Brexitieers are complaining about about infrastructure, overcrowing, etc, that somehow leaving the EU will fix. These problems are 100% caused by the UK goverment that is elected by UK voters. Given a choice of buying a nice fancy car, house, holiday, etc or paying more tax to pay for badly needed infrastructure, too many voters choose the former.

[Oracle]

Oracle, you say those Tory pro-no-deal MPs are only saying "let's leave without a deal" to increase our bargaining power to get a better deal. Whereas a lot of people including other MPs in their own party, who've known and worked with them for year, don't agree and think the ERG really want to leave without a deal. That's why they've now voted to avoid that. I think I believe them and not you.

Having already brought down four leaders over Europe, the Tory party seem intent to continue to tear themselves apart over Europe. I wonder if the lack of a credible opposition is partly to blame. I suspect there would be more of a call for unity if they were 20 points behind in the polls. They seem to forget their real audience is the public, not their colleagues in the party.

You can believe in fairies if you like as well. You don't have to believe me.


Reality is the leading brexiteers and I are all provably and historically all champions of free trade which BY DEFINITION means wanting free trade agreeements, which is why ( for example) they have gone on record to sat the interim position they suggest is lodging the intention for free trade as a joint eu and uk statement to WTO to allow the no tarriff arrangements to continue until formalised.
( big hint: that interim is a deal, that requires joint assent) so is proof of intent for a deal. They also considered it ridiculous that EU refuse a joint agreement on such as satellites or intelligence, and all have said so,

All prefer a deal. But no deal is better than EUs attempt at humiliation.
And EVERYONE must accept no deal as a position to negotiate a good deal. MPs are too stupid to see it,

So take care who you trust. There are many willing to misrepresent them.

Two things remain definitively true.
1/ The utter refusal of EU to even discuss trade in violation of article 50 unless we accept an eyewatering blackmail payment, and a permanent annexation of the sovereignty of Northern Ireland, and other weapons in the WA designed to force us into submission in every later negotiation.

2/ the willingness of remainers MPs to abuse every process and misrepresent all opposition in the quest to undermine and reverse Brexit. It was ne real intended as a meaningful vote, on,y a wrecking manoeuvre, now leaving us in no mans land.

ERG are the only group in the commons respecting the referendum and manifesto.