Brexit

[anthonykay]

I put great store on people's socio-economic and occupational backgrounds in underpinning their view of the world.

Yes, this is something that I have been thinking about. On this forum, WP has pointed out that EU membership has not been helpful to the industry in which he works. And a few weeks ago I heard on the radio that 92% of people in the fishing industry voted Leave (I don't know where that statistic came from, and I haven't managed to work out why 8% of our fishermen/women voted Remain ). On the other hand, universities (the sector where I work) have benefited hugely from Freedom of Movement and from financial input from the EU; apparently there do exist academics who voted Leave, but I haven't actually met any.

Of the newer posters I find the views of Oracle quite interesting. I think he/she is closer to Cassandra than the Oracle at Delphi who was gnomic whereas our Oracle verges on the hysterical and I note that as time has gone on the ability to use spellcheck appears to have been lost; but I do read what Oracle has to say.

Indeed. I do find Oracle's ranting rather tiresome, but I still read it to give an insight into how the other half thinks. As an academic, I obviously prefer WP's reasoned essays, although I don't always have the patience to read every word.

[Graham Breeze]

On the other hand, universities (the sector where I work) have benefited hugely from Freedom of Movement and from financial input from the EU; apparently there do exist academics who voted Leave, but I haven't actually met any.

Illustrating that a high IQ correlates to an ability to reach a sensible referendum judgment?

Anyway anecdote alert! My youngest brother and wife (both Cambridge PhDs) have worked at the University of Pamplona for 30 years and their four older children all have first degrees from that University. The four are "Spanish" having been born there but all four have spent time in England to enhance their post-first degree education achieving a Cambridge PhD (he now works in Seattle), a UCL Masters (she now works in the UK Treasury) & etc. Amongst the rancour, ignorance,...consuming Brexit it is a comfort to me that able young people from Spain have been (clearly at some personal cost and inconvenience) welcomed by fine English Universities to complete their education.

But then, I voted remain.

[noel]

EU blinks first!!

I think they just put the ball back into our court.

I see Teresa May and Jeremy Corbyn's talks have broken down. Apparently Teresa May was unwilling to change the wording of her deal at all! I wonder what she was hoping for.

This is the same Teresa May who delighted in the fact that she is a "bloody difficult woman". Her own party have seen that this is true. So have the DUP. And now it's Labour's turn to learn it first hand. It makes you wonder if she's the best person to compromise.

Maybe she's playing a long game and waiting until the brexiteers all die off. People say politics these days is like Game of Thrones. It certainly is in that it seems like we'll never reach an end.

[Oracle]

I think they just put the ball back into our court.

I see Teresa May and Jeremy Corbyn's talks have broken down. Apparently Teresa May was unwilling to change the wording of her deal at all! I wonder what she was hoping for.

This is the same Teresa May who delighted in the fact that she is a "bloody difficult woman". Her own party have seen that this is true. So have the DUP. And now it's Labour's turn to learn it first hand. It makes you wonder if she's the best person to compromise.

Maybe she's playing a long game and waiting until the brexiteers all die off. People say politics these days is like Game of Thrones. It certainly is in that it seems like we'll never reach an end.

Unwilling to change wording of "her" deal? First off It isn't her deal. It is an EU attempt at a humiliation, that they refuse to change. One of several essential things wrong with it is the forced annexation of Northern Ireland into a permanent customs union AKA backstop with or without the uk mainland.
Since being in a customs union prevents trade deals elsewhere, it isn't Brexit. So Theresa May refusing to yield to a Labour determined not to Brexit in other than name is hardly her being difficult , she is simply accepting the instruction to Brexit which Labour and starmer have never done.

It is fascinating that presentation of uncomfortable facts on the provable dysfunction of the EU are called "rants" by others , simply because the recipient does not like the information presented, It is equally fascinating that none have so far contested or are able to contest what was said, which are just uncomfortable truths that defy EU dogma.
E.g. Fact: membership of single market and customs union did not boost our trade, and the growth in EU trade has substantially lagged behind growth in our trade with the rest of the world. EU is a laggard in growth. Just look up the numbers. Those are critical facts, not rants.

So those who proclaim armageddon on trade outside EU are clearly misinformed. E.g. Fact The cost of many of our food imports are higher than they would be if we were not shackled to the EU.
Avoiding competition is why EU want us permanently shackled In the customs union, EU is terrified of competition. These are not rants. They do not need to be reasoned. They are simply true however uncomfortable they are for remainers.

It is true that universities are a Cinderella sector, that live unaffected by most of the realities or problems of life in a commercial world. They say they are funded by EU money, which is patently ridiculous. It is our money handed back less an EU effective tax of 50 percent. Universities ate never very bright in confronting objective reality because They never have to earn the money that pays for them. That is why they don't care, which is a product not of intelligence, but of self interest Many of the increasing cacophony of voices that proclaim the unsustainability of the euro are in the university sector. But because they are slow witted, it took universities a long time to catch up with what was accepted elsewhere a long time before.

So here another uncomfortable fact.
If the university system of EU is so fine, why do none of its universities outside Britain appear on the top international rankings of universities? My answer: Like everything else EU , they are flabby , dysfunctional and inefficient. So Mr Breeze. Perhaps as a sycophant you can answer why the university of Pamplona, is not leading the way? Could it be the apparent limitations of the people you note are there? Or could it be just too much sun and sangria?
Following on with a related question: why do none of the Internet giants often born in universities come from EU? So the EU is not so marvellous then, nor are the universities.

[noel]

I'll leave it to others to check the rest of the "facts" within your latest rant Oracle. I'd like to start with the first one. You say the EU refuses to change the deal. And yet, here's Michel Barnier just the other day publicly saying the EU would be open to a customs union:
"We are ready to be even more ambitious should the U.K.'s red-lines evolve. For instance, we are open to work on the principle of a permanent customs union should the U.K. decide to take this path."

Link: https://www.politico.eu/article/mich...k-brexit-deal/

4:15 in the morning! Having trouble sleeping?

[biaraV2]

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...#survey-answer

Quick fact check for top universities in Europe, doesn't seem to totally agree with Oracle's last post....

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...asc/cols/stats

Top ranking world universities.

[biaraV2]

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/pol...-explained.pdf

One of first documents explaining how universities are funded. Not quite 'our money handed back less an EU effective tax of 50 percent'

[Muddy Retriever]

Illustrating that a high IQ correlates to an ability to reach a sensible referendum judgment?

Somewhat surprising then that such intelligent people haven’t worked out that the financial input they receive from the EU is simply our own money paid back. Outside the EU our own Government could replicate all the grants the EU provides and still have money left over for other things.

[Muddy Retriever]

I'll leave it to others to check the rest of the "facts" within your latest rant Oracle. I'd like to start with the first one. You say the EU refuses to change the deal. And yet, here's Michel Barnier just the other day publicly saying the EU would be open to a customs union:
"We are ready to be even more ambitious should the U.K.'s red-lines evolve. For instance, we are open to work on the principle of a permanent customs union should the U.K. decide to take this path."

Link: https://www.politico.eu/article/mich...k-brexit-deal/

Noel, why wouldn't Barnier be open to the idea of the UK being stuck in customs unions with the EU without a say in it? That is the whole point of the backstop in the first place. It is there to prevent the UK exiting the customs union and making trade deal with the rest of the world. They are scared stiff that the UK will make a success of Brexit and other countries will want to follow.

So if we are now turning to Barnier and say we would like to be permanent shackled to the EU, he's hardly going to refuse. They used to say that Margaret Thatcher was lucky with her enemies in Scargill, Galtieri etc but I bet Barnier and Juncker can't believe their luck with their adversary. What a catastrophically incompetent Government and mutton headed parliament.

[Oracle]

With respect ian, it is the universities themselves not me , who made the farcical argument that they would be Badly affected by Brexit , they referred to exclusion from EU funding which is only our own money returned less a cut. Argue with them, not me, it's not my argument it is theirs. Most of project fear is hogwash.

The top universities, MIT, Stanford, imperial etc prosper from wide international collaboration not restricted to EU. It extends to quasi academia too. Before EU we (indeed I ) did collaborative projects through ESA. It is only that prick Barnier who in a hissyfit seems to think all collaboration should halt

International rankings prove what I said is true: There is nothing in EU in the top 20 other than UK. Just as EU economies lag, so do their universities. Switzerland is represented, so are Singapore and China.

Far from EU universities spawning big internet giants, EU is now doing what it can to discourage not encourage Them.. The copyright law is crazy.

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/pol...-explained.pdf

One of first documents explaining how universities are funded. Not quite 'our money handed back less an EU effective tax of 50 percent'