Brexit

[Graham Breeze]

You are in good company. So is the PM, a large majority in the commons, and the entire House of Lords ( whose members are probably too senile to even remember whether they are trying to forget it, or whether they forgot it by accident)

On a previous discussion comparing proper universities like Imperial, Stanford and MIT, with others such as oxbridge, it occurs to me that one Diane Abbott is Cantab. Coming to which Seamus Milne is Oxon. I definitely prefer and understand the math taught at Imperial compared to the new math seemingly taught at Cantab , although I suspect Abbott would claim that makes me prejudiced much as you said!

Ah yes. History. Newnham College.

I don't believe that I knew that.

"Three years of unparalleled pampering and privilege" (Eleanor Bron - another Newnham socialist)

[Oracle]

Ah yes. History. Newnham College.

I don't believe that I knew that.

Apart from which we can claim Brian May, so no contest!

[Witton Park]

All the hints from Government ministers this morning seem to indicate that the Government will indeed agree with Labour's proposal for a permanent customs union. A few people on here have explained why this is such a bad idea but it is worth remembering that some Labour people used to think that too. Here is an article written by Barry Gardiner for the Guardian in July 2017.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...britain-europe

Some have suggested we should retain membership of the customs union, the benefits of which extend to goods rather than services, and establish common import tariffs with respect to the rest of the world. But that is not possible. The only members of this union are the member states of the EU, and they alone have negotiating power.

Other countries such as Turkey have a separate customs union agreement with the EU. If we were to have a similar agreement, several things would follow: the EU’s 27 members would set the common tariffs and Britain would have no say in how they were set. We would be unable to enter into any separate bilateral free trade agreement. We would be obliged to align our regulatory regime with the EU in all areas covered by the union, without any say in the rules we had to adopt. And we would be bound by the case law of the ECJ, even though we would have no power to bring a case to the court.

As a transitional phase, a customs union agreement might be thought to have some merit. However, as an end point it is deeply unattractive. It would preclude us from making our own independent trade agreements with our five largest export markets outside the EU (the US, China, Japan, Australia and the Gulf states).

More important, were, say, the EU to negotiate an agreement with the US that was in the union’s best interests but against our own, our markets would be obliged to accept American produce with no guarantee of reciprocal access for our own goods into the US.

Turkey faces precisely such an asymmetry with Mexico, with which the EU negotiated an agreement 20 years ago. Turkey still faces a 20% tariff on its clothing goods exported to Mexico, while it imports Mexican cars on a tariff-free basis.

Absolutely spot on Barry. Why aren't you still saying this now?

This was also off the back of a Labour manifesto that said no to EEA and no to Customs Union.

What astounds me is the number of MPs that seem to know little about the consequences of being in a Customs Union.

This is from an order from a customer in Turkey.
T DAMLA DENİZCİLİK A.Ş.
ORDER CONFIRMATION
Please never use Ditaş Deniz İşletmeciliği as a messrs or receiver company
Please fill & stamp the attached doc (Asbestos Free Declaration) and send with order acknowledgement.
Please add the sentence end of the invoice as follows;

“I, the undersigned, declare that the goods listed in this invoice .......... (date and number) originate in ........... and produced by......... (name of the firm) in .............. (name of country).

I undertake to make available to the related public authorities any further supporting documents they require.
(Location, date, Name, title and signature)”

And please send the original invoice (signed and stamped and added above sentence) to the office address below.

1 original invoice ( signed and stamped and added above sentences ), original ATR1 and original Certificate of Origin to be sent to the office address.

CE or ATR1 and Certificate of Origin docs and 1 original invoice ( signed and stamped ) shall be given to the carrier with the documents. ( So, original invoice will be submitted to the company who done the our custom formalities by the carrier )

The total order value in this case was £300.

The level of paperwork required is astounding. That £300 order required more paperwork than any order I have shipped since I started this business 6 years ago and I ship around the world.

Wet stamped invoices?
The ATR1 for and the EUR1 forms are movement certificates required to demonstrate the goods are entitled to freely move around as either EU origin, or fully EU tax and duty compliant.

We've heard about the hokey kokey of goods over the NI border, and the bits of a mini that cross a border umpteen times before they end up in a finished vehicle.

A Customs Union without being in the EEA would be admin heavy. It makes no sense and I have yet to hear an argument for it, where the person knows what they are supporting.

I even heard one Labour MP Rupa Huq last week justify her support for a Customs Union on the basis her daughter wanted to go and study in Switzerland.
That's about as bonkers as it gets.

The way to cut down border bureaucracy and paperwork is mutual recognition, which is used widely now in modern FTAs.

There has been only one red herring put forward as a reason why we can't have this, and that we must protect the Belfast Agreement at all costs and such a scheme would damage the Agreement.

It's a false argument.

It's false because if we leave on April 12th, we will have to deal with it, so if we were to leave at the end of 2020 having planned for it on both sides, it must be manageable.

But even if it is not false, if the agreement has been framed in such a way to stop a sovereign country following a perfectly reasonable path, then there is something flawed about that agreement.

[DrPatrickBarry]

For those of you who are trying to belittle the issue with the N.I border you should have a read of the Irish Times article below.

Most of these criminals are the remnants of Republican and Loyalist paraliminatary groups. After decades of "the troubles" N.I has a very healty criminal network, who are loving the opportunites Brexit offers. All you Brexitieers go on about MaxFac and "Trusted Traders" but how does that work in the febrile environment that exists in N.I? You have succeeded in setting N.I back 20 years, congratulations.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ster-1.3854431

[Wheeze]

So what you're saying Pat is that the bad guys never went away, they just found new ways of being bad?

[Witton Park]

For those of you who are trying to belittle the issue with the N.I border you should have a read of the Irish Times article below.

Most of these criminals are the remnants of Republican and Loyalist paraliminatary groups. After decades of "the troubles" N.I has a very healty criminal network, who are loving the opportunites Brexit offers. All you Brexitieers go on about MaxFac and "Trusted Traders" but how does that work in the febrile environment that exists in N.I? You have succeeded in setting N.I back 20 years, congratulations.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ster-1.3854431

How long does the rest of the UK have to tread on egg-shells politically to supposedly keep a lid on a minority of dickheads on either side?

Look at the voting in North Ireland. Since 1992 it has gone:

UUP - 271049 to 83280
DUP - 103039 to 292316

That's the Unionists.

SDLP - 184445 to 95419
SF - 78291 to 238915

and the Republicans.

If the people of Northern Ireland want to vote for the nutjobs that's up to them, but don't come complaining to me about it.

[DrPatrickBarry]

So what you're saying Pat is that the bad guys never went away, they just found new ways of being bad?

Afraid you have nailed it there. That province has such a long way to go, to get to normality and that point is getting further away instead of closer.

[DrPatrickBarry]

How long does the rest of the UK have to tread on egg-shells

I suppose if you think women and children loosing their husbands and fathers is a price worth paying for "freedom", then the UK does not have to worry about treading on egg-shells.

[Muddy Retriever]

You have succeeded in setting N.I back 20 years, congratulations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...ster-1.3854431

Seriously Patrick? That's ridiculous. That article seems to be about villains being villains. Not sure how you can pin it on Brexit.

If tensions are increasing in Northern Ireland I would place the blame firmly at the door of Leo Varadkar and the EU who decided to weaponize the border for political reasons.

[DrPatrickBarry]

For those of you who are trying to belittle the issue with the N.I border you should have a read of the Irish Times article below.

And here we are confirming my above statement

place the blame firmly at the door of Leo Varadkar and the EU who decided to weaponize the border for political reasons.