Brexit

[TheGrump]

.....have a look at how the referendum on abortion played out in Ireland.

How is that statement relevant to the EU referendum?!
Different country, different referendum. Religious beliefs, not politics.

[Witton Park]

I take it you did't actually read the disgusting things he wrote, he definitely lost his cool and embarrassed himself greatly!

I haven't embarrassed myself since our housewarming in 2001 when I got a little drunk and did ministry of silly walks around the house several times.

and if that's your idea of disgusting, then maybe a name change to Delicate Mouse is in order.

[Witton Park]

More generally I too am not interested in being told FACTS that are simply unknowable outcomes.

and yet you were quite keen to present your unknowable outcomes as facts

[Witton Park]

I think the debate has moved on from the details of Brexit to the core of this country's democracy. Much of the blame for the current impasse should be laid at Cameron's door, if only for his poor framing of the referendum. But as Stagger succinctly stated, the result was clear and U.K. democratic principles mean we leave. As far as I know, no-one has legally and successfully challenged the holding of the referendum or the accuracy of the voting. Therefore it stands. In a parliamentary election would the outcome be continually contested until the 'right' result was obtained? I suggest that politicians might be surprised at the number of remain voters, who albeit reluctantly, accept the referendum outcome because of their overriding belief in our democracy, and also want to see it brought to fruition if only for the return of some certainty and stability.
Personally I'm sick and tired of having what can only be predictions about the effects of Brexit/no deal rammed down my throat as unalterable FACTS in a poorly disguised attempt to manipulate opinion. The contempt of politicians for the electorate is becoming all too obvious. Most politicians seem to have forgotten they are elected to serve. They will do anything to grab the keys to No 10 to be in 'power' regardless of how undemocratic their methods. Has Jo Swinson stopped and listened to her own utterings? Here's my prediction - the LibDems (ironic name) will be annihilated at the next General election. Of course just like the Brexit supporters and doom mongers, I could be completely wrong

Strange times - I see eye to eye with TheGrump, so it can't be Graham in disguise

[Stagger]

Cameron bolted after his mess and so have the provokers on here.
Create a stir then vanish.

Just accept democracy.

Accept the result.

And get to the ballet box next time and hope you are in the majority.

PS well done Boris.

[noel]

I think most of the remainers on here have either been hounded out (not wanting to mention any names here ), or have left you to it.

I wonder if this is good gauge of the way the public debate has gone.

I do accept the result. People voted for Brexit. This was based on the clearly stated pledges by lots of leading brexiteer politicians that this would mean leaving with a deal. If the UK can achieve this, I will accept democracy (despite thinking we're better off in the EU).

However, I and most other remainers, plus a small but substantial proportion of brexiteers don't support a no-deal brexit. For this reason, I think that delivering a no-deal brexit would be contrary to the wishes of the majority of UK people, and therefore anti-democratic.

[Stagger]

Some fair points Noel.
BUT
Deals were never on the table.
The vote was leave or remain.

[Llani Boy]

There was no option of leaving with a deal on my ballot paper, just Leave or Remain.

There are a lot of people out there kidding themselves that they are democrats.

[DangerMouse]

I haven't embarrassed myself since our housewarming in 2001 when I got a little drunk and did ministry of silly walks around the house several times.

and if that's your idea of disgusting, then maybe a name change to Delicate Mouse is in order.

Heheh, this explains everything, if that is your idea of embarrassing yourself what a dreary life you must live, this is pretty much normal behaviour for my family, both biological and chosen!

Disgusting is about as mild a superlative as I can imagine, there are thousands far worse than this, but okay, I am happy to be delicate, what a lovely quality - thank you for the compliment!

[noel]

You're both right LB and Stagger, and for that reason there is a little wiggle room in what type of Brexit the government delivers and still says "this is what you voted for". And I realise this is grey area, and I'm likely to be to at one end of that grey area as a remainer, just as you are likely to be at the other end. For me, given that there are hundreds of quotes and youtube clips of prominent brexiteer politicians saying during the campaign that we will get a deal, I think that's what got them over the line. I suggest if they'd have said "we'll try to get a deal, but if we can't we'll leave without a deal" the result would have been different.

So to bring us back to where we are now. I see two outcomes:
1. Boris is trying to convince everyone that he favours a no-deal, but in reality this is a bargaining position so he can get a better deal. If he gets a deal, well done him. He can probably get re-elected on the back of this, depending on how much of a victory the electorate view this as. If this goes wrong, the Brexit party might split the Tory vote. Politics aside, I think this is the outcome on Brexit most people would favour. Stagger, LB, do you agree?
2. Boris is trying to get a no-deal to shoot the Brexit party's fox and to then blame the EU and hope to get elected on the back of that. As a remainer, I can see the benefits of this to Boris, but not for the country as a whole.

Of course, this very much depends what sort of deal. I'm guessing the deal would be something like the May-Barnier deal but with the NI situation sorted out - that seems to be what is being discussed now.