Championship Races 2023

[Graham Breeze]

Whilst it wasn't me that brought cycling into this discussion, I should point out that what you said is not correct; here are the winners for the last 11 years

2012 Philippe Gilbert - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2013 Rui Costa - Grand Tour stage winner
2014 Michal Kwiatkowski - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2015 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2016 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2017 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2018 Alejandro Valverde - Grand Tour and classics winner
2019 Mads Pederson - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2020 Julian Alaphilippe - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2021 Julian Alaphilippe - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2022 Remco Evenepoel - Grand Tour and classics winner

Two of these riders have won a Grand Tour, and all of them have won at least one stage of a Grand Tour. Only one of these riders has not won a classic race. And if we went back over 50 years, we would see names like Armstrong, Bugno, Lemond, Roche, Zoetemelk, Saronni, Maertens, Hinault, Moser, Merckx and Gimondi - all Grand Tour winners and top riders.

Whilst we're talking about two very different sports, 50+ years of evidence in cycling suggests that in a one-off race the title is going to be won by a top athlete, if not the top athlete of that year.

Marco, as always I respect your views but I did write "win Grand Tours" not sprint to win a stage in a Grand Tour, like Sagan (the rider that spoiled brat Cavendish got DSQ from a Tour after Cavendish did something selfishly stupid - but no surprise there).

And of course I know about Bugno, Gimondi etc but that is a long time ago and I am talking about today's events - just as we are with the British Fell Champs.

Btw I have always had a soft spot for Valverde - despite his drug taking. I suppose that's my forgiving, generously spirited, caring nature showing through.

[Graham Breeze]

I seem to remember Graham sat on the sun at the finish straight. Can't remember if it was the Inters or the Trials.
I'm edging towards the Inters as it was certainly hot.

Probably an indication that runners are not really "fell" runners at the Inters is that I was criticised for not having a drinks station on the course :O

It was the Inter-Counties. Obviously my trip to the park named after you was memorable.

[PeteS]

I thought the comparison to the cycling world championship was a good one and I'm sure Graham's comments were a little tongue in cheek. There isn't really an equivalent of a grand tour in fell running but you would have thought those riders who were there or thereabouts on the one day classics in any given year, would be strong contenders at the Worlds. I think Marco's list supports that and I don't see why that would not play out in fell running too.

I personally like the idea of a single short and long race but like others on here, I'd be concerned it would alienate non-English athletes under the current proposal.

[Marco]

I personally like the idea of a single short and long race but like others on here, I'd be concerned it would alienate non-English athletes under the current proposal.

There's a lot of difference between a short race and a long race, so if I was still racing I'd support one race for each.

In the interest of fairness, I think if two races were adopted then they should both rotate through the four nations, so each nation would get one of the races every other year.

[ba-ba]

The British Championships are under the control of BA/UKA MRAG and the proposal on the British Championships is from them.

The consultation survey has been devised by the FRA to gather the thoughts of the FRA membership, FRA being the representative body for English fell running. FRA will then feed back to MRAG. It has been put on the FRA website and facebook page, and there will be a mailshot to club reps in the near future to publicise around clubs.

The Intercounties is now (and has been for a while?) the 'Intercounties Mountain Running Championships' and as such is now more fully marked and traily than it might once have been, and sometimes used as a Trials race.

As has been mentioned, it's a balance between purity and pragmatism. We don't expect a nice simple answer from the survey, but we need to get people's viewpoints. It also means that there's eyes on this proposal and people know what's happening - I wouldn't want something like this to be perceived as being 'snuck through' - by FRA or MRAG!

[Graham Breeze]

The British Championships are under the control of BA/UKA MRAG and the proposal on the British Championships is from them.

The consultation survey has been devised by the FRA to gather the thoughts of the FRA membership, FRA being the representative body for English fell running. FRA will then feed back to MRAG. It has been put on the FRA website and facebook page, and there will be a mailshot to club reps in the near future to publicise around clubs.

The Intercounties is now (and has been for a while?) the 'Intercounties Mountain Running Championships' and as such is now more fully marked and traily than it might once have been, and sometimes used as a Trials race.

As has been mentioned, it's a balance between purity and pragmatism. We don't expect a nice simple answer from the survey, but we need to get people's viewpoints. It also means that there's eyes on this proposal and people know what's happening - I wouldn't want something like this to be perceived as being 'snuck through' - by FRA or MRAG!

That's all good.

I suggest what will be the more interesting aspect of this process is the response from the other representative bodies.

[anthonykay]

. . . FRA being the representative body for English fell running.

A phrase which gets to the heart of the whole issue. The FRA was set up to serve UK fell running. [And indeed the FRA fixture list still lists several Welsh and Scottish races (but then, the WFRA fixture list contains a fair number of English races, so that doesn't prove anything).]

Thus, the FRA originally only organised a British Championships (or Fell Runner of the Year, as it was then titled). Then the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish all set up their representative bodies for the sport in the 1980's, leaving the FRA to retreat south of Hadrian's Wall and east of Offa's Dyke, which has left the British Championships in its current limbo.

[Marco]

Whilst it wasn't me that brought cycling into this discussion, I should point out that what you said is not correct; here are the winners for the last 11 years

2012 Philippe Gilbert - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2013 Rui Costa - Grand Tour stage winner
2014 Michal Kwiatkowski - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2015 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2016 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2017 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2018 Alejandro Valverde - Grand Tour and classics winner
2019 Mads Pederson - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2020 Julian Alaphilippe - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2021 Julian Alaphilippe - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2022 Remco Evenepoel - Grand Tour and classics winner

Two of these riders have won a Grand Tour, and all of them have won at least one stage of a Grand Tour. Only one of these riders has not won a classic race. And if we went back over 50 years, we would see names like Armstrong, Bugno, Lemond, Roche, Zoetemelk, Saronni, Maertens, Hinault, Moser, Merckx and Gimondi - all Grand Tour winners and top riders.

Whilst we're talking about two very different sports, 50+ years of evidence in cycling suggests that in a one-off race the title is going to be won by a top athlete, if not the top athlete of that year.

In the mysterious zone between sleep and consciousness this morning I remembered that when I first got into cycling, (40+ years ago), there were two world championships; there was the official one-off race, already fully discussed, and the unofficial world championships called the Super Prestige Pernod.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Prestige_Pernod

In the years from 1969, to its finish in 1987, every winner of the competition won at least one Grand Tour at some point in their career, and the list of names is stellar:

Merckx (7 wins), Maertens (2), Moser (1), Hinault (4), Lemond (1), Kelly (3), Roche(1)

I think you would agree, Graham, that this is probably a list of the biggest stars from the 1969-87 period. It was a season-long competition, based on a lot of races, with ( I think I remember correctly) more points for more important races, with Grand Tours having the most.

The reason I have posted this is that Merckx, Maertens, Moser, Hinault, Lemond and Roche are on both lists; they won both season-long championships and one-off race championships. In other words, in cycling at least, you can't stop a top athlete from winning.

[Graham Breeze]

In the mysterious zone between sleep and consciousness this morning I remembered that when I first got into cycling, (40+ years ago), there were two world championships; there was the official one-off race, already fully discussed, and the unofficial world championships called the Super Prestige Pernod.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Prestige_Pernod

In the years from 1969, to its finish in 1987, every winner of the competition won at least one Grand Tour at some point in their career, and the list of names is stellar:

Merckx (7 wins), Maertens (2), Moser (1), Hinault (4), Lemond (1), Kelly (3), Roche(1)

I think you would agree, Graham, that this is probably a list of the biggest stars from the 1969-87 period. It was a season-long competition, based on a lot of races, with ( I think I remember correctly) more points for more important races, with Grand Tours having the most.

The reason I have posted this is that Merckx, Maertens, Moser, Hinault, Lemond and Roche are on both lists; they won both season-long championships and one-off race championships. In other words, in cycling at least, you can't stop a top athlete from winning.

Marco

I will always defer to you on cycling history but the period you cite ending 1987 is now over 35 years ago and the sport has changed beyond recognition - not least in the focus on money now mattering more than anything else.

[Graham Breeze]

A phrase which gets to the heart of the whole issue. The FRA was set up to serve UK fell running. [And indeed the FRA fixture list still lists several Welsh and Scottish races (but then, the WFRA fixture list contains a fair number of English races, so that doesn't prove anything).]

Thus, the FRA originally only organised a British Championships (or Fell Runner of the Year, as it was then titled). Then the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish all set up their representative bodies for the sport in the 1980's, leaving the FRA to retreat south of Hadrian's Wall and east of Offa's Dyke, which has left the British Championships in its current limbo.

Well yes...but the FRA from its foundation had been operating (problematically) outside the aegis of the athletics bodies and after the AAA in 1978 had unilaterally formally declared that fell and hill running came under its control then only affiliation would resolve the differences and this did not come about until 1982 from which other developments in terms of other national bodies were inevitable, including national championships.

For a long time it would be fair to say that the "UK Athletics" body (who remembers the British Athletics Federation?) wanted authority over, despite not having any interest in or capability to organise, fell running matters and it seems to me that current arrangements are far better than in those bad old days.