Bike Racing

[Marco]

... This racing is edge of seat stuff and a far cry from the Sky train of a few years back, plodding up the mountains in a line and nobody attacking.

The difference is that there are two riders head and shoulders above the rest, supported by two teams head and shoulders above the rest.

Whilst it was a great stage win for Ineos, again, it was only because the top two were playing games, and being baulked by two motorbikes, that they got the win.

[Witton Park]

It's very flowery, Graham, but what does it tell us that we didn't already know from watching yesterday's highlights show?

Kwiatkowski was lucky, and he admitted it himself. Under normal circumstances the breakaway would have been caught before the summit; I think he said "We had a free ticket to the bottom of the climb"

As to the Ineos Grenadier team, they don't have a genuine GC contender and haven't for some time. I don't know if this is through under-funding, (relative to other teams), poor coaching, or bad recruitment. Yes, they've had some bad luck, including a really bad crash to Egan Bernal a while back, but a team of their stature should have two top leaders.

I don't see Ineos Grenadier winning a grand tour anytime soon, unless it is through a top GC contender crashing out and them inheriting the win. If Rodriguez and Pidcock were going to be top GC contenders we should have seen it by now; they are 22 and almost 24 respectively and Tadej Pogačar and Remco Evenepoel both won grand tours at 22. Contenders, maybe, but with Pogačar, Vingegaard, and Evenepoel all racing at the moment it's going to be hard for anyone else to win a grand tour in the foreseeable future.

Not mentioned in Stephen Puddicombe's writing is the other two-horse race in this year's Tour de France; the battle between the Yates twins. In theory it should be Simon, as Adam is doing heavy-duty domestique duties for his boss, but I'm not sure that will be the result as Adam looks to be in slightly better form.

How many potential Grand Tour winners are there around at any one time?

Sometimes you will get a winner by default such as Tao G-H a few years ago at the Giro. But it's bloody tough these days with the increased profile of these races to look beyond the same 4 or 5 riders.

Let's face it everyone thought this TdF was a 2 horse race from the start, with the rest fighting for 3rd place.

If Pogacar, Vingegaard, Roglic or Evanpoel turn up, the rest almost might as well not bother, barring crashes or illness.

So when Ineos have slipped a little from the domination they had, it's only to be expected. They have looked mostly to the Hispanic riders for recruitment, which hasn't worked for them.

They've clearly missed out on Tao G-H as well, who early season looked to be riding better than ever.

In terms of age, cycling age surely must come in to it. I reckon most will get 5 years at the top. That for some could be 22-27 and for others 27-32, much depends on the training and competition pathway they've taken.

Pogacar has been on the radar since age 11, is the youngest to ever win a UCI stage race and completed his first Grand Tour 4 years ago, and Pidcock has only been a Professional for 2 years.

[Marco]

Pogacar has been on the radar since age 11, is the youngest to ever win a UCI stage race and completed his first Grand Tour 4 years ago, and Pidcock has only been a Professional for 2 years.

Whilst Pogačar was the youngest winner for some time, at 21 years and 365 days, I should point out that Fausto Coppi won his first Giro d'Italia at 20 years and 158 days, and Giuseppe Saronni won his first Tirreno–Adriatico at 20 years and 175 days. There were even earlier winners, way back.

In terms of age, cycling age surely must come in to it. I reckon most will get 5 years at the top. That for some could be 22-27 and for others 27-32, much depends on the training and competition pathway they've taken.

Before Graham mentions it, I should say there were 13 years (and World War II) between Coppi's first and last Giro d'Italia wins. In the current era, Mark Cavendish has won sprints in grand tours over a 15 year period between 2008 and 2023!

[Graham Breeze]

Whilst Pogačar was the youngest winner for some time, at 21 years and 365 days, I should point out that Fausto Coppi won his first Giro d'Italia at 20 years and 158 days, and Giuseppe Saronni won his first Tirreno–Adriatico at 20 years and 175 days. There were even earlier winners, way back.



Before Graham mentions it, I should say there were 13 years (and World War II) between Coppi's first and last Giro d'Italia wins. In the current era, Mark Cavendish has won sprints in grand tours over a 15 year period between 2008 and 2023!

What you might have added is that Coppi was a POW during WW 11 so I guess his nutritional needs during those years fell a little behind that provided to Sky/Ineos riders, in or out of a pharmacy. Anyway I ride a Bianchi because Coppi did.

Incidentally (I know Marco will know this) Cippolini's Grand Tours were spread over 14 years and, of course, his 42 wins in the Giro is a record. I know he wasn't and isn't a saint - but he had style that that Manx shoulder-charging roughneck can only dream of.

I know this is romantic guff but Merckx won his 34 TdF stages along the path of being the greatest cyclist the world has ever known and probably ever will...and the prospect that a man who is carried round the TdF on a feather bed and then just sprints for 200 metres achieves 35 and adulation doesn't seem quite right to me.

I would have to reread my Merckx biographies to see how many TdF stages he gifted but even if it was only one it will be one more than Mr Manxman.

Having said that I do understand that no media outlet will pay journalists/ commentators to write/ say how great, say, Merckx was; so we live in an era of lauding instant heroes to collect the pay cheque and uphold circulation/ audience ratings.

[Witton Park]

What you might have added is that Coppi was a POW during WW 11 so I guess his nutritional needs during those years fell a little behind that provided to Sky/Ineos riders, in or out of a pharmacy. Anyway I ride a Bianchi because Coppi did.

He wasn't racing Sky/Ineos riders. He was racing riders who'd also been through WW2.

[Witton Park]

Whilst Pogačar was the youngest winner for some time, at 21 years and 365 days, I should point out that Fausto Coppi won his first Giro d'Italia at 20 years and 158 days, and Giuseppe Saronni won his first Tirreno–Adriatico at 20 years and 175 days. There were even earlier winners, way back.



Before Graham mentions it, I should say there were 13 years (and World War II) between Coppi's first and last Giro d'Italia wins. In the current era, Mark Cavendish has won sprints in grand tours over a 15 year period between 2008 and 2023!

So Coppi had a few years off for the war and his first win was against a field of Italians in 1940. He might have been a cycling great, but it's not a great example because in his later years he clearly had a lower cycling age than he would have had but for the war.

But to the main point, that Ineos have slipped up in their recruitment. I agree - but mitigation is that there's only 1-2 grand tour potential winners coming through each year and I think their scouting got carried away a little down in South American looking for the next Quintana - a rider who never quite lived up to expectations - much like the recruits they brought in.

And whilst Pidcock might not make it to Grand Tour challenger, maybe he doesn't even fancy it, he does have the potential off what he has shown so far.
He's relatively unexposed and as shown in glimpses he has what it takes even in this Tour. Not bad for a cyclist who's target was the Spring Classics.

[Marco]

But to the main point, that Ineos have slipped up in their recruitment. I agree - but mitigation is that there's only 1-2 grand tour potential winners coming through each year and I think their scouting got carried away a little down in South American looking for the next Quintana - a rider who never quite lived up to expectations - much like the recruits they brought in.

There is a grand tour contender with the potential to beat Pogačar and Vingegaard hiding in plain sight in this year's Tour de France.

I spotted his potential last year, so I'm pretty sure that Sir Dave Brailsford has been offering him money to join Ineos. It's not just spotting the talent, however, it's persuading them to join the team and buying them out of whatever contract they've got.

[Marco]

And whilst Pidcock might not make it to Grand Tour challenger, maybe he doesn't even fancy it, he does have the potential off what he has shown so far.
He's relatively unexposed and as shown in glimpses he has what it takes even in this Tour. Not bad for a cyclist who's target was the Spring Classics.

The cycling greats won grant tours and classics. That's why Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Fignon and now Pogačar are talked about so highly. Whilst Pidcock clearly has some class, he's some way behind the top five currently active grant tour contenders

[Witton Park]

The cycling greats won grant tours and classics. That's why Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Fignon and now Pogačar are talked about so highly. Whilst Pidcock clearly has some class, he's some way behind the top five currently active grant tour contenders

I think that's what you call a straw man Marco.

Strangely today an article in the Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/...-cannot-go-on/

"Tour-winner Andy Schleck thinks cross-discipline titans such as Wout van Aert and Mathieu van der Poel will be retired not much past 30"

[Graham Breeze]

I think that's what you call a straw man Marco.

Strangely today an article in the Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/...-cannot-go-on/

"Tour-winner Andy Schleck thinks cross-discipline titans such as Wout van Aert and Mathieu van der Poel will be retired not much past 30"

Opined Andy Schleck who retired at 29!