Can we trust the police?

[Marco]

https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/p...5486.bild.html

Point 11 on here might be debatable given the question posited by this thread, but I'm broadly in agreement with the rest of it, if it were to apply here too.

It may be a case of translation errors, but how Bild's manifesto reads is just going to pour petrol on the current situation

Point 4 is racist
Point 6 is offensive to some religions
Point 11 is highly debatable
Point 13 allows for police brutality
Point 15 goes against what is written in the bible
Point 31 discriminates against some religions
Point 42 is offensive to many religions
Point 43 is highly questionable

All in all, it's an offensive and pretty **** article, the sort of thing you'd expect the National Front to write

[Mossdog]

It may be a case of translation errors, but how Bild's manifesto reads is just going to pour petrol on the current situation

Point 4 is racist
Point 6 is offensive to some religions
Point 11 is highly debatable
Point 13 allows for police brutality
Point 15 goes against what is written in the bible
Point 31 discriminates against some religions
Point 42 is offensive to many religions
Point 43 is highly questionable

All in all, it's an offensive and pretty **** article, the sort of thing you'd expect the National Front to write

I'm sorry you found the idea/manifesto offensive Marco, that wasn't the intention at all, and some of the objections you raised I think go to the heart of the matter about the nature of societies- everywhere on the planet.

I was listening to a debate recently, that looked at the topic of multiculturalism defined as:

"multiculturalism: The doctrine that several different cultures (rather than one national culture) can coexist peacefully and equitably in a single country."

I'd never considered the full implications of multiculturalism in detail before but saw it previously as having a strength based on diversity. Of course, that isn't what it means, and I think we're experiencing some of the problems when we have had (only recently) some large increases in immigration from very different, even contrasting cultural beliefs.

A point was made that what we might consider is 'multi-ethnicity (ism!!)" , where a country can be made up of lots of people from varying and diverse ethnic/cultural groups, but that there is an overarching, and inclusive culture to a country that people subscribe too. As such, the strength of diversity is valued but social cohesion and, importantly, the avoidance of 'ghettos'. Language learning is respectful to your host country as when people can communicate they can negotiate and understand each other better. I think that's what we've had for many hundreds of years in this country, with people settling from all over the world, but largely subscribing to and, significantly in turn, evolving the country's culture that people contribute too. I think that's what has been missing recently, as there has been such phenomenal changes with no time to evolve and has caused some of the issues we're seeing currently with marked divisions of ideas and beliefs, some of which are intolerant, even martial all in their foundation and proselytising. 'WE' have been a Judeo-Christian culture traditionally, and even though secularism seems to be widespread now, the echos of those underlying philosophies for understanding the world and the country remain. These are largely about tolerance for others.

As Karl Pepper posited:The paradox of tolerance - states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

[noel]

Language learning is respectful to your host country as when people can communicate they can negotiate and understand each other better. I think that's what we've had for many hundreds of years in this country, with people settling from all over the world, but largely subscribing to and, significantly in turn, evolving the country's culture that people contribute too. I think that's what has been missing recently...

Is that true? My perception is that recent immigration has been predominantly from Europe, and predominantly by people who share many aspects of "Judeo-Christian culture". This is in contrast to the immigration the UK experienced in the 1960s, which was largely from ex-empire countries.

I like your Karl Pepper reference. It's a good point. We shouldn't let intolerance drive the agenda.

[Witton Park]

Is that true? My perception is that recent immigration has been predominantly from Europe, and predominantly by people who share many aspects of "Judeo-Christian culture". This is in contrast to the immigration the UK experienced in the 1960s, which was largely from ex-empire countries.

I like your Karl Pepper reference. It's a good point. We shouldn't let intolerance drive the agenda.

I'm not sure what you question the truth of Noel.

On the immigration figures, recently, since covid, the non EU immigration has roughly trebled from it's pre pandemic level to Q4 2022. The highest are now from India.

Going back to 1991, non EU immigration has been higher ever year except 3.

I don't have the breakdown by country, but the 3 years 2013-15 where EU migration was higher were the first 3 years that Romania and Bulgaria were allowed fill access to the UK Labour market.

[MattPo]

I'm not sure what you question the truth of Noel.

On the immigration figures, recently, since covid, the non EU immigration has roughly trebled from it's pre pandemic level to Q4 2022. The highest are now from India.

Going back to 1991, non EU immigration has been higher ever year except 3.

I don't have the breakdown by country, but the 3 years 2013-15 where EU migration was higher were the first 3 years that Romania and Bulgaria were allowed fill access to the UK Labour market.

An awful lot of Ukrainians, and even more Chinese from Hong Kong have come recently.

[Marco]

Language learning is respectful to your host country as when people can communicate they can negotiate and understand each other better. I think that's what we've had for many hundreds of years in this country, with people settling from all over the world, but largely subscribing to and, significantly in turn, evolving the country's culture that people contribute too. I think that's what has been missing recently, as there has been such phenomenal changes with no time to evolve and has caused some of the issues we're seeing currently with marked divisions of ideas and beliefs, some of which are intolerant, even martial all in their foundation and proselytising. 'WE' have been a Judeo-Christian culture traditionally, and even though secularism seems to be widespread now, the echos of those underlying philosophies for understanding the world and the country remain. These are largely about tolerance for others.

According to the 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population in Wales, aged three or older, was 17.8 percent. Your logic implies that over 82 percent of the population is disrespectful.

Switzerland, a country that has been very successful at avoiding wars and conflict, has four official languages. It we want to find a model for peace, we should look at a country that is good at it rather than take a discriminatory/racist approach to it.

[Graham Breeze]

According to the 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population in Wales, aged three or older, was 17.8 percent. Your logic implies that over 82 percent of the population is disrespectful.

Switzerland, a country that has been very successful at avoiding wars and conflict, has four official languages. It we want to find a model for peace, we should look at a country that is good at it rather than take a discriminatory/racist approach to it.

Mmmh. I've never regarded the Swiss as particularly admirable - although they do build good railways and make some fine watches.

[molehill]

Mmmh. I've never regarded the Swiss as particularly admirable - although they do build good railways and make some fine watches.

And don’t ask too many questions of those who wish to bank there.

[Mossdog]

According to the 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population in Wales, aged three or older, was 17.8 percent. Your logic implies that over 82 percent of the population is disrespectful.

Switzerland, a country that has been very successful at avoiding wars and conflict, has four official languages. It we want to find a model for peace, we should look at a country that is good at it rather than take a discriminatory/racist approach to it.

Marco, I really don't think it's helpful throwing around accusations such as discriminatory/racist, which unfortunately are terms that have rather lost their potency recently as they have been applied far too indiscriminately. I realise younger people tend to accuse rapidly things they strongly don't agree with as 'Nazi' or 'Hitler', but we're surely more sophisticated than that. If you don't agree with something fine, but such emotive language doesn't help.

I struggled to understand your point by point disagreement with the manifesto, which seemed to range from strongly eschewing all suggestions of societal/cultural agreed authority, and degrees of conformity, but then you alluding to the Bible on one point which surely itself is rather (in some readings) a very authoritative text (not that I believe that is necessarily a 'bad thing').

Your use of the Welsh speaking population of Wales as an example, is rather lost me, but perhaps indicates some mutual misunderstanding that has caused you to take offences when none is being given?

We're talking about shared values, which evolve biologically, over time, in all cultures - where there are new communities joining. For example, we (currently) have monogamy in marriage in this country, we don't see polygamy as lawful. Many cultures take different views, but while the law prohibits this (authority exercised) then most people in Britain comply. Same with age of marriage, same with FGM, etc. All authoritatively upheld in the UK, where the Law and the Police are the authority (see relevant point in the manifesto you disagreed with), not minority community leaders, or individuals themselves. None of that is racist/discriminatory? It's what the majority of people in the country believe to be right, at the moment. It may change - just like same-sex marriages are now legal (which of course some minority groups in the UK are appalled by - but that's not racist or discriminatory either to allow such marriages).

No one is claiming that having different languages spoken in a community is a problematic issue (far from it - it's an enrichment), but where a minority language is your only language, and if this actually reinforces isolation for some parts of the wider countries community, into ghettos, or silos of culture, rather than allowing an active participation by ALL groups to contribute to a country's culture, that can surely be problematic and lead to friction. That is, if you can't actively take part in a community because you can't effectively communicate, it must be very difficult to feel welcomed and aligned with, and contribute to, that wider community. Coming to live permanently in a new country, it is a commonly held courtesy to attempt to learn that country's primary language(s). Granted, the stereotype is that some Brits aren't necessarily very good at that when living abroad - but that's another issue.