Someone needed to say the truth Edam. For 95+ per cent of us, once the map or compass comes out our race is pretty much over.Originally Posted by Edam
The idea behing compulsory map and compass carrying is presumably to enable you to get off the fell safely in the event of difficulty.
That's a good point.
We run nav courses for the WFRA and people want to know about navigating rapidly as though there's some secrets, but really once you are that lost you are better off forgetting about the race, calming down and getting off the hill.
The problem is that few runners practice, only pick up a map when lost in a race, adrenalin pumping, in a rush, and have little chance of navigating competently. Much better off just putting the race out of your mind and getting on with the navigation and relocating to a definitive point, then if you want to carry on the race, carry on.
I know one or two runners who can maybe navigate at near to top racing speed. But local knowledge or a recce would negate that advantage. That is why the navigation thing is a myth other than in 'O' or 'MM' events. I know we can't all recce a route beforehand and I can see Wheeze's point about the Rhinog Horseshoe race but I still agree with Edam about the navigation myth.
I don't think this really relates to the mobile phone issue but I think the way the discussion's gone it's quite interesting.
Hi IainR, I'm an ML and MR, I agree if a client did have an injury you need to have the best options for helping them and getting them off the hill pronto (or any one you come across). although if they had a Heart attack there is very little a phone could do in the hills. An MI is nearly always fatal on the hill unless medical help is with you in minutes.
I was on Grindslow last year and I used both Radio and Phone during the Race.
I'd like to see some one 'race' around the Kinder Mountain Trial in a couple of weeks with out getting a map or compass outyou don't have to be fast to do well in this race, the perfect race for those wanting Nav practice
The Rhinogs Race this year was a great example of run slowly but navigate well. My missus won the womens and was something like top 5 or so and said she finished not that tired as she'd been so steady but continually navigated and didn't get lost at all until a mistake coming off Moelfre.
Yeah true re a heart attack, but it gives you a better chance of help within minutes. It also means you can speak with the MRT's and talk things through with them, what they feel the best options are, walking off yourself, them meeting you or staying put.
I agree many runners couldn't use a map, but many need to understand the need practice. Going on a course gives you a grounding in the skills but you then need to go out and practice contour recognition and gaining further experience.
Agreed again, I know a number of occasions where lost 'walkers' have been talked off the hill after giving the MR a call or have been able to give an accurate description of where they were so we knew where to go quickly
I was talking to another team a few weeks ago and they had an incident where the party walked off the map they were using with out realising it.
I cant help feeling that mobiles still tend to reduce self reliance and encourage people to carry on in circumstances where a more sensible decision might be to get off the hill - as an ex MR member I do know of a number of rescues where they have been helpful but I can also think of others where people have 'relied' on a call to MR not as a last resort but as an early solution to perceived difficulties which they could have resolved themselves with a little skill or effort. This is contrary to what I understand to be the ethos of being in the mountains be it to run climb or walk. As a fell runner I am inclined to think that a greater aid to safety than carrying a mobile would be by having more thorough kit checks at all starts - possibly at registration? I think I've only ever had my kit checked a couple of times apart from Jura where its done every year for everybody. Personally instead of a mobile I would rather carry (and often do) some extra food, a bivi bag or heavier duty cag etc than a mobile - at least I know I can rely on those to work when I need them to! I'm sure a mobile probably does add an extra degree of safety in some circumstances - but so would building a road to the top of Scafell to let an ambulance get there more quickly and so would insisting that nobody ever runs solo on the fells.. I know these are extreme examples but its all about what is acceptable to each of us as individuals, so I'm not criticising anyones views here - if I dont like a race organisers rules I'll either accept them anyway with good grace - or choose not to enter.
I agree with most of what you say but this last bit is another example of missing the wider issue. If one organiser does it and people don't question it, then others will feel the need to include it as a requirement because a PRECEDENT has been set. If it becomes the norm for this to be a requirement (which could easily happen) then it will change the face of the sport in a way I and others above find undesirable.
I will not be entering the Edale Skyline; I never had any intention of entering it, so this ruling does not affect me... YET.
The problem will only affect me directly when and if this ruling rears it's ugly head in other races. It's not enough to simply say 'OK, I won't enter' because gradually more and more races will be denied me if I do that.
As I've already said, this growing tendency to be over-cautious will, ultimately, devalue the sport UNLESS we speak up about it..... which you did, so sorry for the tirade.
Is their any reason why a race organiser wouldn't feel s/he had the right to insist on runners carrying a GPS and subsequently to tell them they weren't welcome on the race if they objected. I think you're right we're going to see a lot more changes and we're going to like it less and less.
There was a Finnish bloke ( a great guy) on my ML training course 10 years ago. We were walking up a hill in the Carneddau and he was talking, I thought, to me. When I answered him he said "Oh sorry I was talking to my wife... in Helsinki." Then he rang off. " She's going to ring me back; it's cheaper." The other trainees looked at each other, shrugged and smiled. Whatever turns you on.
Now if you don't have a phone you are regarded as dangerous. Things are changing faster and faster. Will FRA/BMC membership/insurance be denied to people who refuse to undertake to have a mobile with them at all times whilst on the hill. All you people who are so sanguine about this issue: "This is the modern world, get on the bus." maybe it's not such a small matter.
Here's a question: Is there anybody on this forum who's glad mobiles are now soon to be part of the compulsory kit list. Anybody saying "About time too."?
There is an interesting facet of this whole debate....why do we fell run/race?
Grahams point above seems to be saying that because there are now more people fell racing, we need to modernise it. But perhaps because fell racing/running places more emphasis on disappearing values of self reliance and self responsibilty, perhaps this is why more people are doing it? So, to modernise it would be to dilute the very reason why people do it in the first place.
I know that the reason I fell race rather than do XC or road running is because I enjoy the additional requirements on self reliance and good preparation rather than just outright speed.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote