Personal Locator Beacons

[jenniwren]

Guick Dotto It's wild when you are out of contact and in trouble. I have ridden from my home to Lake Vyrynwy over the mountains. When you get to the Vyrynwy area it is really hard to get a mobile phone service. When you're in the valley there are a lot of people about but once you take to higher ground you could be in a wilderness. I took two ladies down there (riding there and back) on their horses last year and needed to contact a farrier because of a shoe that had come off one of the horses (mine's barefoot...no problem). The mobile phone reception was no better than my first visit there in 1998! I'm definitely not suggesting I'd use a PLB for this sort of event, just illustrating the "near yet so far" of areas like this. We have Clocaenog Forest nearby and the reception in the forest is bad. These are only two places I have sited, but there are thousands more!

Just thought you may like to take a look at this.
http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/742/28/

Stolly Equine Rambers have the spirit of adventure too. If you go onto our website you'll find the Trail Stories. Most of us would like to just go with our steeds into the sunset.....I can just see it now...the silhouette of me on my horse against the sinking evening sun riding over a grassy mountain...sigh! But unfortunately reality kicks in and we count our financial and personal commitments of leaving everything behind and the cost going away. I still value my skin on more local rides (usually 10-15 miles) which still take us into less populated areas, thus the PLB campaign.

[Margarine]

A mobile farrier? Like an AA for horses?

[Margarine]

Those anvils must take some hefting about.

[jenniwren]

More common than you think! (but the shoes are ready made and just need shaping to fit.) Much easier an unshod horse.

[AJF]

Guick Dotto

Just thought you may like to take a look at this.
http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/742/28/

Love the quote from mountain rescue

We have a distinct lack of enthusiasm for them.

If they get behind your campaign I will suspect a lot more people will be behind it as these are the people living with the reality of the introduction of such an idea. I know if they say they are all for it I will support them. I would not carry one myself but feel that MR do a sterling job and if they feel it will benefit them then fine.

I feel without the MR teams on board you may struggle with similar resistance from the more independant mountain users such as climbers and fell runners. If they were on board I bet the responses from UKC would be mightly different.

Here is another good link to consider on Grough http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/671/28/

Can I ask why http://www.findmespot.com/default.aspx which is meant to be coming to europe soon is not a more sensible solution?

[jenniwren]

AJF Spot requires a monthly subscription whereas the normal PLB does not. There are some MRT people in favour of PLB's working quietly to change the law as I think I've explained before, Peter Bell being one of them.

The fact that the units were not originally as reliable as they are now has stuck in peoples minds, even those of some MRT members. The technology has advanced and false alarms are less likey to happen.....these can be checked before any SAR team is activated.

http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/742/28/
As regarding the link above I have said that I agree with educating people that venture up mountains and in remote lowlands. I used to walk out locally with my dog and always used to wear a bright coat. Local farmers use binoculars and would know who I was with the dog and the coat combination, and it then did more for their reasurrance with their stock, but I was seen ....the casual off the cuff walker is more difficult to educate because they do it on a whim because it's a nice day and a path looks tempting.

There has been some publicity lately on MR where they have been trying to get the message across. I hope it continues. The PLB should still be a bonus to SAR. The reasonably accurate postioning will cut down the time of SAR and must be a saving all round.

[AJF]

Why the frown? Genuine question and a genuine thought about mountain rescue and their support needed to get this off the ground for your campaign. You will need them to get the law changed as I suspect they will be called upon for advice on the need for such a thing in this country.

It seems to me that £300 is still expensive as an initial outlay where at the moment the find me spot with todays exchange rate would be £135 for first year and £50 for each subsequent year therefore you would get 4 years use from it at the same price and it has more features than the PLB. If the costs and the subscription was the same in the UK which as they are the operator then I am guessing so. By the end of 4 years this technology will probably be incorporated into GPS devices anyhow. if you think mobiles were just developing color screens 4 years ago you can see how fast this and the GPS market is moving.

It would also be legal in the UK without the need for OFCOM licensing (I am guessing based on reading their website and soon to be released in Europe and the coverage map suggests UK).

It would also be useful across the world as opposed to just the UK so those trips abroad would be safer.

Also, if people are just lost and tempted to press their beacon they may actually go for the friends and family option who can find their position and if experienced could advice them on where they are therefore relocating themselves and showing their way off the mountain. So useful in non-life threatening situations and therefore reducing the possibilities of numpty use.

And the checking in feature would put the minds at rest for those back at home if you decide to bunk down for the night or are late back. Thus ensuring that loved ones do not call MR when there is no need.

Has Peter Bell given you his verbal support? To quote you on UKC

"has said will meet with me next time he visits my area for other business."

Now I used to work in sales (mobile technology industry including GPS companies) and to me that is a fob off and I would not put that on my sales projections unless I was way off my target and my boss would have given me a kicking for doing so. If he is supporting you and has come and met with you I apologise for being off the mark.

My own personal opinion and I probably do not speak for everyone (but I suspect a large % of this forum) is that it is overkill for the UK.

If people do want a device there is already more suitable ones on the market (or will be soon) that have actual useful functions as well as being a life saving device.

Please understand that I am engaging in debate here and not being churlish about it. I understand why you think that PLB's are a good idea but there has to be some serious thought into the one dimensional aspect of them (a major concern of mine), the costs that would prohibit the majority of users, the lack of features compared to other products that would dis-encourage those it is meant to save to actually carry one.

I feel even if you managed to get PLB use legalised its technology and usage will become archaic in a very short period of time. It may be best to look at how and why people use the emergency services and tackle that problem first as the PLB issue will be redundant with upcoming technology.

[jenniwren]

AJF I was frowning at the SPOT. The spot is cheaper initially but with the subscription fee makes it more expensive over time. (Personally equestrans do not like to pay out additiional fees as we have enough expense with upkeep as it is)The other disadvantage is that when you send an emergency signal it goes to the host company GEOS then gets passed on to the Police etc. With the PLBs that are in use for maritime and air now, it goes straight to RAF Kinloss cutting out any error in information. The signal from these PLBs is a lot stronger than that of SPOT.

I think SPOT goes on sale next week in the UK and we will have to watch over the coming months how effective they are. The odd thing is that it's not a level playing field as they transmit a signal and don't seem to require registration. This can only point in favour of normal PLBs being legalised!

I had an informative email from Peter Bell when I started the campaign. So far we have had no further communication and to my knowledge he hasn't visited the area since. I am still hoping he will call, but won't hold my breath!

I understand your comment about other products etc.... one concern with those is the lack of registration. Previous posts have worried about false alarms for MRTs with PLBs. I wonder if the fact that units like SPOT may not have OFCOM registration will have the opposite effect for MRTs(more false alarms)....you don't know and we'll have to see what happens. It may be that OFCOM will take action and require them to be registered with them.

I'm sure that most people who know about SAR / MRTs already know how and why they are used. As to the archaic, the PLB companies don't stand still in development as it's a competitive market out there.

I took on board your point about getting the MRTs behind the campaign and spoke to one of my contacts about it. He is keen to put the correct facts across to them so I will take a back seat on that issue for the moment. He's in a better position to present them.

[AJF]

They do require membership registration as the next of kin or designated person is contacted in an emergency therefore details has to be taken therefore traceable. This is part of the GEOS membership. The GEOS alliance is not part of spot. Spot is a new partner to the alliance therefore separate organisations.

Geos originally set up for rich business people in case of kidnap therefore it is not in the hands of a start up business such as spot. If it was it would give me major concerns. Understand your worry of miscommunication but it is an experienced company e.g. the personal protection officer to the Queen and ex Scotland yard superintendent is one of the directors.

Is your issue regarding registration around the punishment for false alarms if not registered? I am suspecting regardless of technology that issue would be hard to police. e.g. My wife lost in the hills in the dark she would be reaching for the beacon for fear of death in the hills never to be found again. Me on the other hand would be actually quite happy to spend time in the hills in the dark. If she set off the alarm fearing attack from a rabid sheep would she be charged despite it being a waste of resources yet also believing it a genuine emergency? (granted she wouldn't be in the hills but if she was she would be the type wanting a PLB before stepping out of the car)

They are not requiring OFCOM registration because of the way they send signals and who they send the signal to. They are not using public airwaves therefore get round it. I am not a techie in this area so that is all I can tell you about that. If that is a good thing or not I do not know.

As you say it will be interesting to see how the market develops in coming months. However much it may or may not be a good thing for the outdoor scene it will happen regardless of PLB's or not.

I am unsure that there is a need to change the law yet. It may be a time to watch this space and see how some of the other technologies progress.

I will keep an eye on how your campaign progresses and if MRT get behind it because they think it will benefit them please do let me know.

p.s Jenni, been interesting looking into this!

[jenniwren]

AJF Just a footnote....I've enjoyed a sensible discussion with you! It is archaic that the playing field is not level with the marine and air fraternity.