Brexit

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Originally Posted by noel

This is a narrative that plays into hands of those who would prefer a no-deal as it paints the EU at the bad guy. I agree partly - they need to deter other leavers, but I genuinely don't think they were motivated by a desire to punish the UK (any more than we were punishing ourselves). Teresa negotiated on the basis of her red lines, all of which the EU accommodated. It was Teresa's failure to get this deal approved by parliament that brought it down.

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I forgot to answer this point earlier. In fact there is plenty of evidence that the EU was seeking to punish the UK because various EU officials have said so. There was the BBC documentary a few months back for instance where two officials were joking together that they were going to make the UK a colony.

Dominic Raab claimed that Martin Selmayr, the head of the EU civil service had said that "Northern Ireland was the price the UK would pay for Brexit."

Most revealing of all was a quote made by Michel Barnier in 2016 in the French magazine Le Point - “I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.

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Michel Barnier in 2016 in the French magazine Le Point - “I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.

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good to see someone doing their job.

So, what organisation do you know of which allows non-members the same privileges as members? Cake and eating it spring to mind. The idea that the EU are "punishing" Britain is just another anti-EU trope and it's transparent.

Dave, I don't think any one would expect a Brexited UK to have the same privileges so not sure what you mean. As for punishing, I agree thats the wrong interpretation. Dissuading would be better. The EU project will be harmed by the loss of one of the top 3 economies as well as setting an alarming precedent. So, of course, Barniers sole job is prevent UK leaving by any means at his disposal. I totally respect that.

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Originally Posted by Dave_Mole

So, what organisation do you know of which allows non-members the same privileges as members?

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I don’t think we require the same “privileges” as members. A normal free trade agreement that countries around the world negotiate with each other would be perfectly fine.

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A normal free trade agreement that countries around the world negotiate with each other

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we already have that. In fact we have something better.

But I don't see how the EU "punishing" the UK and what you have just said relate.

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Originally Posted by Dave_Mole

we already have that. In fact we have something better.

But I don't see how the EU "punishing" the UK and what you have just said relate.

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What we have with the EU prevents us from negotiating trade deals with other countries. It also involves coming under the jurisdiction of the EU. EU rules apply to all of our economy not just to those companies who sell to EU countries. Commissioners don’t forget we can never get rid of unlike our own politicians. If we had a trade deal similar to the one Canada has with the EU then we wouldn’t be subject to its rules.

With regard to the EU punishing the UK I gave the examples above. In particular the Selmayr comment is quite blatant.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

I suggest if they'd have said "we'll try to get a deal, but if we can't we'll leave without a deal" the result would have been different.

As Stagger says, the options were leave or remain. Obviously your choice of where to tick would have been informed by many things depending on who you are etc. I like to think of myself as reasonably middle ground in most things and the quote from Noel above is EXACTLY what I expected from the situation. I had no expectation of a deal. If we could get one, great, but I certainly did not expect one. So, my vote would not have changed.

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and the term deal at the time of the referendum, was there to be one, was a free trade deal, which the EU have ruled out until we have left.

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Originally Posted by noel

The key word is "acceptable". Remember it was the ERG et al who cost Teresa the deal. The deal that met all the UK government's red lines.

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May only had a majority with DUP support.

She didn't have it.

She also had the likes of Grieve and Soubry voting against. 10-12 Tory Remainers at each vote.

A large number of the ERG voted for the deal at the 3rd attempt and it still fell short. Had they all supported it, it would have fell short.

and as MR said, it met the original Government red lines as set out pre 2017 General Election, but they somehow became pink over the following period.

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Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever

Re the general election, I presume you mean they wanted to prevent a no-deal exit and ensure an extension was requested instead. But the election date was going to be on 14th October. So if they're so confident than have a general election and Labour or possibly a Labour plus others coalition would win. Then they could ask for an extension from the EU themselves. They're obviously scared that they'll lose. To be honest I'm not even sure the opposition parties will agree to an election after November 1st if the polls are still as they are at the moment.

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The reason they all refused to back a vote of no confidence was because they saw it as a ploy by the government to disband parliament and then by the time the election had happened, the UK would have no-dealed by default. You mention the date, but it was my understanding that the government could change the date by a week or two to achieve this end.
Of course some of the pro-tory press seized on this to tell their readers that Jeremy Corbyn is a big chicken. I'm not surprised some people believed it, but I didn't think you'd be one of them.

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Originally Posted by noel

Of course some of the pro-tory press seized on this to tell their readers that Jeremy Corbyn is a big chicken. I'm not surprised some people believed it, but I didn't think you'd be one of them.

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Noel, I don't need to believe the pro-Tory press I just need to take Corbyn's own words.

https://labour.org.uk/press/let-bill...ection-corbyn/

Labour would back an election as soon as the Benn bill passed. It passed so why are they still blocking an election?