Brexit

[noel]

Some interesting points there MR.

...The EU was motivated by a desire to punish the UK and deter other potential leavers.

This is a narrative that plays into hands of those who would prefer a no-deal as it paints the EU at the bad guy. I agree partly - they need to deter other leavers, but I genuinely don't think they were motivated by a desire to punish the UK (any more than we were punishing ourselves). Teresa negotiated on the basis of her red lines, all of which the EU accommodated. It was Teresa's failure to get this deal approved by parliament that brought it down.

Let's not forget that agreeing an acceptable deal has been severely hampered by Remain politicians in this country

The key word is "acceptable". Remember it was the ERG et al who cost Teresa the deal. The deal that met all the UK government's red lines.

Remain MP's justify their refusal to honour the referendum result and in many cases general election promises by saying it is only no-deal that they are opposed to. Well in that case why did they vote against May's deal?

So the way I see it is: the Labour leadership were playing politics - they wanted to see the deal fail. Some rebelled and voted with Teresa May. But as I said before, the deal would have passed if it wasn't for many Tories who felt it wasn't brexit enough.

Remainers claim that leavers didn't vote for no-deal so why do they refuse to put that to the test?

I genuinely don't know what you mean here. By "put that to the test", do you mean have a second referendum asking people if they support a no-deal? I can't think that's what you mean, as I suspect you'd be worried the first referendum would be overturned.

That's if we ever get a general election any time soon, the opposition parties are currently blocking this for fear they will lose.

You know that's not the reason they blocked it though don't you?

I'm afraid the acceptance of democracy argument doesn't wash when you put it like this. I don't doubt your sincerity Noel but I do Remain politicians. They simply want to stay in the EU and they're not overly fussed how they achieve it.

I agree to a certain extent. However, I think the way things have played out has pushed many reasonable MPs to adopt a polarised position. Look at most of the conservative MPs - mainly pro-remain, but mainly voted with the government on Teresa's deal. It's only as things have shifted more towards a no-deal that some (and it's probably a minority of conservative remainers - I'd be interested to see the numbers) have split off to actively try to prevent a no-deal. Of course that only addresses the Tories. Labour have been playing politics, and the SNP and Lib Dems were openly opposed to it from the start so I definitely agree with you with regards to these.

So, we've had three or four people on here say, in response to my assertion that some people who voted to leave didn't want a no-deal, that they would still have voted the same way. And I think the implication is that "because I didn't, I know others didn't too". However, brexit is a broad church. I know people who have said they wouldn't support a no-deal even though they voted to leave. Indeed, I also know people who said, if they had their time again, they'd vote to remain. There's also a YouGov opinion poll: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...Trackers_w.pdf
that includes slightly more leavers than remainers (based on the referendum) and 49% say the UK was wrong to vote to leave, vs 40% saying the UK was right to vote to leave. What do you brexiteers make of this?