Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
You do the maths.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastion Coe: Born to Run
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
You do the maths.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastion Coe: Born to Run
Not tonight I'm off to bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
The marathon.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Everyone would think I was drugged up for the 100m, wouldn't they?
You're resorting to speculation instead of facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Seb Coe never ran a marathon at world record pace.
Possible the nearest equivalent would be Paula Radcliffe who has run 800m in 2:05.2 and a marathon in 2:15:25. Her 800m time is certainly not world class.
I'll try if everyone else does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Even if Chris says 'Yes' this does not make it a fact as Chris would have no firm evidence for his belief. Not that stops some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Bad move XRunner now he'll be slinging mud in Paula's direction because she happens to be an asthmatic and he believes her to be a drug cheat because of the 'benefit' her medication gives her. It also gives him the ability to move the subject away from his non factual based points about Lord Seb.Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
The reason I didn't answer the question last night was that I thought it was a pretty pointless question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Notlob till i die
Ballbagerously funny, this thread
I never said he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
Even if Chris says 'Yes' this does not make it a fact as Chris would have no firm evidence for his belief. Not that stops some people.[quote]
I just wanted to see if Chris could put an argument together, based on his knowledge of the sport.He can't or doesn't want to, so he's irrelevant to this conversation.
The facts remain Notlob, that we do have firm evidence of Coe's ability. Peter Coe says he ran 45 minutes for 10 miles.He didn't say he ran 9 or 9 1/2 miles in 45 minutes.That is evidence, unless we think his dad's a liar.
By the same logic, if someone says Gab ran 45mins for 10miles in a race, does that mean he did.Maybe someone's lying, or perhaps they measured the course wrong, you wouldn't know.Evidence isn't just truth, it's falsehoods as well.
All I'm saying is that it was possible for Coe to do it, based on his fitness at that time.
Actually, if he did measure it in his car as you suggest, then a real distance of 9.5 miles is quite possible... AIMS reckon cars measure courses at least 5% short.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea
Quite possible Tea.We are going back 30 years though.What if it was measured underdistance.That'll get the formites going!
Here's a conundrum that used to keep us talking for hours when we were eleven: if a Zulu warrior were to take on a Spartan who would win? or who was tougher?: Typhoon Tracy or Captain Hurricane? or if Alf Tupper were to race the Amazing Wilson who would be first? etc etc etc. Great fun but I guess we'll never know.
As they are all cheats and everyone knows Billy Whizz would win any race any time this conversation is redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guick Dotto
Jason
;) :D
(great memories though!)
C'mon Christopher Leigh we're still waiting - you've made these claims before on other threads. As an admirer of Ethiopian distance runners, I'm interested in what evidence you have that Gebreselassie and Bekele et al are drug cheats .Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
Didn't Ken Wood claim that he had run a sub four minute mile before Roger Bannister?Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Sheffield runners do have a certain reputation.
Christopher Leigh, I salute you, you are a genious among idiots, a rich man among paupers. Why did no one else think of it before. Endurance is the key to a world class 800m. From now on I'm going to run 150mpw and that will definately give me the type of endurance needed to break the 800m world record. If only the worlds best had as knowledge a coach as you seem to be, maybe the world record would be sub 1.30 by now. You are right endurance is the key......Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
NOW JOG ON
Good old Billy Whizz! Yes he was fast, but no way could he beat Wilson at rock climbing:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trossachs!
Okay I'll give you an honest opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by crowhill
The main limiting factor in endurance running is oxygen uptake, transportation and usage in muscles.
Lets assume we have a natural athlete weighing 7okg with an oxygen uptake of 5.7litres a minute.Thats a V02 of 81.4ml/kg/min.Also assume that his haemoglobin is 15.8grams per 100ml of blood and that the quantity of blood in his body is 5litres.
Every gram of haemoglobin can hold 1.34ml of oxygen.So:
1.34x15.8x50=1058.6ml. Thats the amount of oxygen contained in the blood.
To get an uptake of 5700ml(5.7litres) the heart has to circulate the blood 5.38 times round the body.
Ok now we inject him with EPO.Over the next 4 weeks his haemoglobin rises to 18g per 100ml. so:
1.34x18x50=1206ml. An increase now of 147.4ml of oxygen before we circulate it round the body.
The heart pumps it round the body 5.38 times again.So 5.38x1206=6488ml of oxygen.An increase in oxygen uptake of 788ml per minute.
This equates to a V02 of 92.6ml/kg/min.An increase in uptake of about 16%!
Obviously I've started with a fit athlete, but you can see the problem.EPO wasn't tested for before 2000, and still can't be effectively tested for now.This incredible increase in performance is the reason why world records started to be smashed in the 90s.
I've put quite a bit of effort, into working everything out and explaining this.So serious comments only please.
I must be a genius, because I can spell genius!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bant
Quoted in Lydiard's book "Running To The Top"
Bengt Saltin compared seven elite Swedish runners with students from St Paricks High, Kenya. The students at St Paricks ran a high mileage, as fast as they could, 6 days a week [traditional harriers training?], plus running to school which added 10-30 km slow running.
Saltin found that the Kenyan's had a 3% greater anaerobic capacity, and similar proportion of slow to fast twitch muscle fibres.
But, he also found that the Kenyan's had more mitochrondria per cell and more capillaries draped around each fibre (7-8 against the Swedish 4-5) [ie. a greater capacity to use oxygen and a greater resistance to fatigue]
Saltin also found that the Kenyans had a higher concentration of enzymes which break down fat for energy, and to provide energy aerobically to muscles.
I don't think there is any suggestion that Kenyan high school athletes are routinely on drugs. It seems to me that they are pursuing the same training program that British athletes were following in the 80's, but from an earlier age.
Standards in Britain were far higher 30 years ago, with a number of runners running sub 2-10 marathons, world records being broken, and presumably without drugs. If the Africans are doing the same, but building up from a higher and earlier base, you don't need drugs to explain their success. They're just doing what we did, but better.
Let's be careful about glass houses, Chris....Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Ok.ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea
Quote:
Originally Posted by crowhill
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
This is a serious comment, Chris.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
As an admirer of Ethiopian distance runners, I'm interested in what evidence you have that Gebreselassie and Bekele et al are drug cheats .
Ok, I'll bite. Records being smashed in the 90's ? 10,000 maybe, but it doesn't follow down the distances.
This is number of times records were broken in each decade. It's difficult to lay data out in a post but it should make sense.
Decade 70, 80, 90, 00
800 5, 1, 3, 0
1500 2, 5, 3, 0
Mile 3, 5, 1, 0
5000 4, 4, 6, 1
10000 4, 2, 8, 2
Totals 18, 17, 21, 3
Thanks for the response Chris, but I'm still not blinded by the science for the following reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
1. Records are still being broken by Bekele and Gebreselassie, so the argument about records being broken in the 90's doesn't add up. Admittedly, there was drug taking by 100m runners such as Flo Jo, Ben Johnson, and some promininent East German and American sprinters in the last 20 -30 years and those records are still unbeatable, but there is no evidence that it is a factor in Ethiopian distance running.
2. EPO isn't the only way to increase haemoglobin... training at altitude also increases the manufacture of haemoglobin and Ethiopia is, after all, a mountainous country.
3. Most significantly, none of the stats relate in any way to the question I asked about evidence of Ethiopian distance runners being drug cheats.
I still think that if you fling accusations around without a shred of evidence, eventually your arguments lose credibility (ask Mohammed Al Fayed.) I reckon the dynasty of Ethiopian distance running is still down to it's cultural status, hard bloody work, geographical/climate and genetic advantages and not magic potions.
...And Kip Keino and Henry Rono were breaking records back in the 60's and 70's, so African distance running didn't just start in the 90's.
The biggest improvement in the world marathon records since 1990 was achieved by Paula Radcliffe. Are you suggesting that she used EPO to enhance her performance?Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
...But the same as Seb Coe, she does a lot of upper body strength work, which apparently slows you down. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
Look at Henry Rono's world record times for 3,000, 5,000 10,000 and the steeplechase thirty years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Aouita broke a couple of those records several years later by quite small margins, and oddly it is Aouita who Christopher Leigh claims is the epitome of distance running ability.
I've run 29:19 for 10km and was beaten by just over 2 minutes by two world class africans in the race. After seeing these men in the flesh and with a fairly clear understanding of my own (unenhanced!) abilities I have no difficulty in believing that many (or even most) of these africans are clean. I know other people who have trained in Ethiopia and Kenya and think the same way as me.
Now obviously there have been many cheats over the years but an exceptional performance is not evdience of cheating.
At the same time the implication that British runners must be clean and are getting a raw deal at the hands of the dirty cheating africans worries me. Surely we've seen enough over the years to show that British sports people are no more morally reliable than any other nation.
Oh yes how silly of me, I unintentionally spelt the word genius wrong, I'm definately and IDIOT then!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
What a twit .... I'll let you decide if my spelling is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Reading this thread it does appear you are getting an ever growing band of followers
Fellow Mzungus please go to:
http://run-down.com/guests/wn_ode_to_innocence.php
This is a really funny satire that sums up the naivety of some formites.
From 1973-1993(20 years) the 10k record improved by approx 22 secs.Quote:
Originally Posted by crowhill
From 1993-1998(5 years) the 10k record improved by 45 secs.
From 1973-1978(also 5 years) the 10k record improved by 8 secs.
Some of those earlier 10k records were held by kenyan, altitude trained runners.They weren't much if at all faster, than sea-level trained athletes.
What about all the other african runners that ran to school every day when young and competed at world level.They weren't any faster or better than sea-level athletes.
Sure altitude training will raise haemoglobin levels but not to the same extent as injections of EPO.
A kenyan steeplechase record holder tested positive some years ago, for EPO.If altitude training was equal to EPO use, why did he use it?
One other point.If you think Bekele and Gab are naturally trained, then you either have to say that their training produces just as much endogenous EPO, as it would from exogenous EPO; or- that they are exempt from the physical laws that the rest of us are subject to, and hence, doping themselves wouldn't have any effect on their performance.
You've made some good points Crowhill, but as you can see they don't stack up.
I never said it did.I've spoken to Henry Rono, and he had quite a few things to say, about now and then.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
I don't know, but I do know Salbutamol has enhanced her performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
I've already answered questions on her a while back.Go to the 'Drugs in sport' thread.
Dominion you seem to be an expert at Quoting out of context.Which is a dishonest way of misrepresenting my views.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
If you don't like what I'm saying, give reasons and arguments instead of making puerile remarks.
I think everyone's given you a more than fair hearing CL.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Thanks for the backhanded compliment Chris ;). This could go on for ever so I'll try at least one more time. Apart from chucking a load of stats about EPO and haemoglobin can you provide just one single shred of evidence that Bekele and Gebreselassie (and all the other magnificent Ethiopians/Kenyans etc) are drug cheats and not genetically pre-disposed, highly motivated, brilliantly trained and physically supreme athletes.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
As a matter of fact you DON'T know that salbutamol has enhanced her performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
PR has admitted to taking salbutamol for sports induced asthma and this drug has a small capability to enhance performances. This does not allow you to conclude that PR's performances have been enhanced by taking Salbutamol. You would need to carry out a series of experiments and controls measuring PRs performances before and after she takes salbutamol.
Similarly your statement that recent world records may have been improved with assistance from PEDs is equally incorrect. You cannot prove that any world record holder has taken PEDs to break the previous record.
This does not reject the alternate argument that PEDs are not being used in the sport but, for as long as PEDs are illegal, the only proofs would be by detection or admission.
I have to agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Having reread your thread about Drug Taking In Sport I tend to believe the arguments put by people like Wheeze or Chris and the pragmatism of daz H rather than the pseudo-science that you tend to use to justify your statements.
The basis for many of your arguments is that because world records are being broken and because PEDs exist and are known to be used by certain athletes, you imply that world records are being broken by athletes who take drugs. An impossible conclusion that defies logic!
It is this type of rumour and speculation that are causing too many problems with the sport of athletics.