I was in the bus with St. George and the dragon. They were great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubbev
Printable View
I was in the bus with St. George and the dragon. They were great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubbev
I almost feel guilty now for not turning him around and leading him back with our group to Capplestone Gate. (Hindsight is a wonderful thing now I know that's where his group had just arrived.) At least I spoke to him to find out what he (thought he) was doing and was able to pass that on to the marshal who came out in search of him shortly afterwards. I'm glad he found him and got him to safety, hopefully quickly because from what I recall it wasn't far to the checkpoint.
Hi. This is wrong. It's not what happened at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinkletoes
My name is Dave Moor, a member of the organising committee of The Fellsman. I have created this account so The Fellsman organisers can respond to some of the comments on this forum. Personally I have held every position on the committee with the exception of the Treasurer's, I have even spent a couple of years as the Safety Officer on the event. You will probably not get an immediate reponse from us as we tend to consult a couple of other committee members before we post reponses. We do not like, and want to avoid, knee jerk responses which we are not prepared to follow through.
Now to the subject of this post, the enforcement of the grouping rule. In the past I have disqualified entrants in person for breaking their group during the event. This is not an easy thing to do to people who have completed 40, 50 or 60 miles, but for their, and other entrants safety, we feel it has to be done. Enforcing the rule is difficult because we rely on our checkpoint teams noticing split groups as they arrive at their location, obviously we can not monitor what happens between checkpoints.
If a split group is brought to our attention we WILL disqualify the whole group. We are currently investigating two instances of split groups on this years event. One resulted in the event Doctor attending a hilltop checkpoint to care for a entrant with advanced hypothermia and resulted in Mountain Rescue being called out to carry him down from the hill. When we have identified the members of these groups they will be disqualified.
Splitting groups is something we take very seriously, and as you can see, it can easily have serious repercussions. Whilst we appreciate everybody wants to see the results we don't feel we can release them until we have got to the bottom of these issues. Under normal circumstances we would have dealt with split groups on the event, however this year our priority was getting everyone down safely, both entrants and staff, which meant rule enforcement had to be delayed.
I'm sorry this has taken so long to get posted, the autentication email for the account registration got lost in the post.
Well having re-appraised my 'performance' on the day and my wimping out at Cray, what I thought were maybe symptoms of (at least the beginnings of) hypothermia were probably not that at all but were hypoglycemia instead. For sure I was cold, really cold, but my feet, hands and head were all fine and it was only my body core (my torso) that felt icey cold; cold from the inside almost, maybe not at all helped by my first layer being damp from sweat.
What I was though at Cray was absolutely and completely starving, weak, really sleepy, I was slurring and I had very blurry vision. Having looked up hypoglycemia on wiki they all seem to be classic symptoms. Me eating two saucepan fulls of rice pudding and fruit salad back to back and two jam sandwiches pretty much as soon as I could in the tent at Cray demonstrates just how hungry I was. I had a huge baked potato with chilli as soon as I got back to Threshfield too (and seem to have been stuffing my face with food pretty much ever since then :) ).
I think I got into some kind of food deficit by not eating properly at Dent (and again later at Redshaw) and would have probably done much better had I built up a energy surplus by eating, even though I felt slightly sick, at Dent. I should have asked for a jam sandwich or something as I always can eat those - I doubt I could've digested the sausage rolls on offer and was leaving Dent before I heard some other runner order baked beans (I forgot they were on offer).
The really really frustrating thing is that my legs were absolutely fine and they could have run on I'm sure. I even ran a couple of miles on Sunday afternoon and have run every day since then. As matey used to say in the Fast Show.... Booger!
Fantastic Grough write up by the way :) (it was of course me that referred to this year's event as 'The Fellsman with nobs on' :cool:) and thanks for the update Fellsman
You may well have had HYPOGLYCEMIA - a low blood sugar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Haha. Thanks Mike ts what I meant. I've altered my post accordinglyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
basically Hypoglycemia is just a megga Bonk/crash in runners speak, problem is though it leads quite quickly into exposure/hypothermia/exhaustion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
I had my blood sugar tested by Strider every 5 miles during the Hobble race a few years ago and it was surprising how much by blood sugar went up and down despite constant eating...
This is something that I really have to keep tabs on. I've bonked when cycling and on runs before, literally felt like I couldn't keep my eyes open. I get quite anxious if I'm running with people that don't stop to eat but have learnt that I just need to do what I need to do regardless of the pressure to push on, even if its a race. It's a toughie. Until you experience it and then understand what has happened, its very difficult to know how important it is to keep fuelled up even when you think you are ok. On the Fellsman I ate little and often and supplemented with two energy gels and it worked for me. By Park Rash I was feeling really sick so it was all I could do to stuff down some custard creams and a cup of tea but I forced myself to do it and fortunately I made it to the end but I'd like to understand this issue better. Perhaps an FRA day course on survival in the mountains covering hypothermia and this as well as other issues might be a goer? I'd do it!
Despite all the controversy, this thread has thrown up some really important issues and people sharing their experiences has taught me a lot so its been really worthwhile in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
With regards to my above comment, I think what I am trying to say is that I often get by on a wing and a prayer and I'd really like to understand things better so that I am not relying on guesswork or luck! :)
I have bonked several times but always kept going. Legs are dead and I feel really heady but I know that it is just a severe lack of energy and food inside of me. My issue is that I can't sort my food out during a long run even 15 milers and I am unlikely to eat other than a single gel. I just find that food does not sit well inside me stomach so I tend to eat ready break/porridge before hand and pop the occasional gel during the event. During this years fellsman I only ate an 2 apples at dent, bowl of pasta with cheese at stonehouse, a hotdog at cray and a soft cheese sarnie with spaghetti hoops at top mere (?). I would certainly say that this is not enough to fuel a 14 stone body over this distance. My feeding is something that I will continually have to learn about and adapt. Just like I have now learnt that a citrus flavoured drink or coffee within 90 minutes of a hard race will have me up chucking, the last time it happened i was doing 80 driving down the m4 - thankfully my therma cup was empty but it had to be emptied twice out of the window. Personally I am always finding issues good and bad with my feeding during an event, I'm always ready to learn from others experiences and their greater knowledge.
I once had an experience on the M4 when a speeding motorist covered my windscreen with two cupfuls of hot vomit.Quote:
Originally Posted by sore legs
Good Call!
The Rules are there for a good reason!
As frustrating, irritating, painfull or, even frightening, as it may be, participants in any Event of this type have a responsibility, as decent human beings to, not only take responsibility for the people in their allocated Group, but also other participants who are clearly alone and in trouble!!!
Golden Rule! Cajole, drag or carry their sufferring ass to the next Checkpoint and sort it out from there!!
Dog Breath, I don't know you, but your cold, sanctimonious, judgemental comments made on here give the impression of someone who has no regard for the Rules or the wellbeing of your fellow participants!!
I'm fairly certain that most Ultra Runners have had a bad do on a big Event like this, at one time or another! Especially in such gruesome conditions!
I sincerely hope that, if one day that happens to be you, or any of the other people that you were grouped with on this particular Event, you don't find yourselfs on the receiving end of similar, poor, treatment!
I don't know if your's is one of the Groups referred to here, under consideration for Disqualification?
This may or may not be the best place to raise this but I sort of wonder, for the runners at least, whether compulsory grouping during the fellsman is really necessary. Bear with me a second on this as I fully appreciate that most fellsmanners will agree strongly with grouping and that of course the organisers can impose any rule they like, with competitor safety particularly over night and near to the end of such a grueling race being paramount. All the same its worth a thought:
1. Runners at the point of grouping have all been doing their own thing; some will be on their last legs having over cooked things to that point whilst others will have been taking it easy so that they can comfortably finish strong
2. Even though everyone is grouping a fair way into an event it doesn't remove the chance of very mixed abilities for the remainder of the race within the group
3. Like last weekend, some competitors could be suffering from cold and/or low blood sugar whilst others are fine. Yes preparation, common sense, experience and mountain craft come into that but so can simple things like runners just having completely different metabolisms.
4. Waiting for a group can itself lead to competitors having to hang about and get cold(er)
5. Many runners I am sure are reassured by joining a group and would perhaps throw in the towel if grouping wasn't there to 'save' them. Whilst this is a brilliant positive for morale boosting it can also lead to runners being tempted to bite off more than they can chew. Although the circumstances leading to the chap becoming unattached from his group near Capplestone Gate are inexcusable, that chap should almost certainly have decided to withdraw earlier rather than lumber a group with what could be a very difficult and dangerous problem
6. I'm sure some runners don't worry about the navigation of the part of the course that they will be grouped in - "someone will know" :)
7. When it boils down to it, what is the fundamental difference between night and day? Its darker and maybe but not always a bit colder. Visual navigation is obviously usually much more difficult but certainly running with the clag down in rain in the day time is far more difficult than running at night with clear skies. When its clear at night in fact other runners are really easy to see from their headtorches. Again if runners knew they had to be willing to bash on alone they might be far more inclined to be sure that they think they can do it
8. Runners could always group up if they wanted to regardless
Anyway just thinking out loud really. Also as an aside for next year what about a 7 am start?
I agree Stolly I found myself with a group that were worn out. So after my efforts I now have no option but to see them safe and try to improve my position at the next roadside CP. Being forced to group with strangers has the recipe for trouble as has proved. Other events like the Lakeland 50 / 100 your on your own. I know it's held in the summer but if you choose to run in the spring then prepare for owt. Rule are rules and should not be broken and perhaps some sort of vetting system needs to be adopted. If you had to look after an exhausted entrant who had kidded their self they are ok to crack on then found they could go no further then I see a bad moon rising....because I know I would suffer and did trying to keep them safe.
I know you mean well so this is more of an observation. if you have seriously suffering(Exhaustion/Hypthermia etc) member of a group(any where any time) then by all means support, assist, give food, take rucsac off them(This has been done to me and I've done it for others), give clothing but NEVER drag or FORCE them on to the next CP, Seek shelter ASAP get them warm and feed them. if possible drop off the hill to a road for help. Remember though you are the most important person so you don't want to add to the casuality list, you can't help them or yourself if you succomb. Thats where Mountain Craft and experience come in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plod Queen
Forcing some one to walk who is suffering from exhaustion will only take away their last reserves of energy and could make matters much worse.
It's a fine line but worth considering.
Difficult, this one. From the organisers point of view I should think the consequences of dropping the grouping rule could be disastrous. As Stolly points out, lots of people do it in the hope that they'll get grouped with folk who know the route. Those of us who live fairly locally always have to chance to recce the route, but those from further afield often don't.
I personally wouldn't mind going it alone, but I couldn't in all conscience leave a struggling fellow competitor to fend for themselves if it was obvious they needed a bit of help.
I think on balance I'd keep the grouping rule, I can see lots of calamities otherwise!
Agreed. That though is nothing to do with grouping as, in any race, if you came across someone in trouble you'd help.Quote:
Originally Posted by plodding bear
You'd hope so, Stolly! But I think the organisers would - rightly - be VERY nervous about runners/walkers who don't know the area wandering about over Fleet Moss and so on in bad weather, in the dark, on their own. So, I think the grouping rule will be staying.
only way it would ever happen is if the course was marked and I can't see that happening. so stayed group, RO's rules, not really up for discussion.
Yeah I'm sure it will be staying, don't get me wrong. All the same Fleet Moss is crossed in daylight by many runners and, by that time of the day, the field is spread out. I was largely on my own for over half of it this time. From a navigational point of view if you get in trouble its relatively easy to get off, just head south. Equally Buckden Pike and Great Whernside can be got off pretty quickly by heading west. And if you are on your own and do feel in trouble, you are far more likely to take that sensible option. As a group though you might be encouraged to continue, especially as the group need you to keep with them to avoid disqualification themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by plodding bear
You're assuming everyone can navigate - I know they are supposed to be able to, I suspect there's plenty that can't though. Also, those escape routes you have pointed out require a rational mind to make that decision, then find some help somewhere else, then get in touch with the organizers to let them know what you've done...
Yes you're right, but not all who find themselves in trouble will arrive at those decisions. A group can be a pain in the arse, but it's safer for all concerned; in the event of an accident it means someone can stay with a casualty whilst two others go off to get help.
Maybe anyone wanting to go solo could sign a disclaimer of some sort, but I can't see it happening.
Yep all valid points. And all points that could equally apply in poor daytime weather. Maybe all fell races should be done in groups :D (okay I'm definitely joking now).Quote:
Originally Posted by plodding bear
To be honest both of my fellsman experiences grouped up have been excellent, although for one we had to wait 45 minutes to get our fourth team member and I got seriously cold in that time. In the same event (2009) I also purposely kept quiet about a slightly knacked ankle which I knew would slow me down - I mean who wants to group up with someone who is bound to be slower?
My bad grouping experiences have all been in the High Peak Marathon which, on the face of it, should never really have them at all as you should be running in a team of friends. I though have never able to get in as a team of friends and have always been a last minute sub in a hodge podge team. I've been in one team where a couple of the members clearly disliked each other, another where I was a 200 to 400 meter behind tag along Charlie (in deep snow and poor visibility) and yet another where all three of my team members were completely and utterly unfit and I knew I was in for a shambles DNF right from the start. Grouping can create as well as solve problems is I guess the main point I'm making.
Anyway thats enough of that. With or without grouping the Fellsman is a truly brilliant event
It certainly is, I think I'll be having a crack again next year!
I had some truly horrendous grouping experiences one year, too; what with having to backtrack to Fleet Moss, and then pick up new members, some of whom had already said they were only going as far as Hell's Gap (slowly), it took about five hours to get across!
Stolly's suggestions raise the question how one should distinguish between 'runners' and 'walkers'? The only sensible metric seems to be expected finishing time (EFT) and hence the current system already implements selective grouping of 'walkers', i.e., people who are expected to take longer then some set time (n.b., I'm not saying that only people who didn't get grouped are runners, I'm saying that the current system produces a split into two sets of entrants based on their expected finishing time, call them what you will). Hence maybe the more interesting question is what time should grouping commence? With 7:30 groupings (at Cray & Park Rash) people with an EFT of about 12hrs30 would make it through. 7pm groupings would mean only people sub 12hrs would be ungrouped (<5 in general). My opinion is that the current times are too early, in particular the 7pm grouping for this year (although I understand that grouping wasn't enforced till 8pm at Park Rash leading to a people with EFT ~13hrs getting through). With pretty light conditions till about 10pm (=13hrs) I think a more reasonable EFT boundary would be 14hrs, meaning grouping at Park Rash at about 9pm, Cray 7:30 (n.b. these are estimates based on a handful of rough leg times I know, one should look through the records of the CPs and come up with better estimates of how Cray/Park Rash times relate to EFT)
Overall I'm not against grouping - in fact, I think it is a good idea in general - however I feel that changing the grouping times could improve the event, making it more of a race the whole way for a larger proportion of the field. Obviously there will be people who will treat it as a race rather then a challenge who will be taking longer, but well one has to set a boundary somewhere and as I say overall I'm in favour of grouping, it's just with the faster people covering the Rark Rash - finish section in <2hrs grouping at 7pm seems overly cautious. One could also go to the other extreme and ensure everyone gets grouped, however that raises the question where to group the front runners, unless the start time were to be moved...
On the racing vs. challenge theme, I also feel that a better system for 'time allowed' once grouping has commenced could be put in place, in particular should the early grouping times remain, as this again allows a larger portion of the field to have a race if that's what they want.
Just my thoughts. In general I think that everyone involved in putting the Fellsman on is doing a fantastic job, I'm very grateful they do, I once again had a great time and am already looking forward to next year (whatever the grouping times might be :) ).
Whilst I agree that there are good arguments for not grouping people and for everyone being self-reliant and not relying on others to navigate, I think that it is important to remember that The Fellsman isn't actually a fell race. I know that many of us want to do it as fast as possible (can't believe that I'm saying that when last week I didn't know if I would even be able to complete it:rolleyes: ) and obviously there are elite runners taking part too but ultimately, the event is run for hikers and runners and is just that, an event. There are so many races available to do for all of us, perhaps we should just accept The Fellsman for the brilliant challenge that it is rather than trying to change it to suit us runners more?
I think that last post sums it it up perfectly. I've read many sensible posts on this thread, and some not so sensible, but I think Hes has hit the nail on the head.
Bravo.
Well put Hes. I see all of the thoughts Stolly is simply "suggesting" but you've hit the nail on the head. The Fellsman IS different. There's plenty of other races to race on. An earlier start time might work, but might make Satday morning rushed for the organisers I guess.
Maybe a later grouping would work, though? After all, there's nowt to stop people grouping voluntarily before then, should they wish.
I have only taken part in the fellsman twice and I believe that it should cater for all entrants, walkers, runners and those in between. I personally don't like or agree with the grouping rule. I'm sure that without it my time would slightly increase as I would be one of those who are unable to pop over for a quick recce. Although my time may increase my feeling of completion would be so much more and to me that would make a more memorable and enjoyable event. I don't expect the organisers to change the grouping rule though as they would be to concerned by the H & S police and that they would see that as a step too bold to take. I do think that the grouping timings should be realistic. 1900 this year was far too early, this was also the view of several of the organisers at the finish as they were discussing it. 2030 on the Friday when snoozing in me car and it was still daylight outside. They could also have differing group times depending on what cp you are at and how far to the next cp (as has been mentioned). These differing times could also be wrapped up by accepting the different group requirements of walkers and runners - this would be simple to do. An earlier start time would also assist in off setting some of the group timing requirements with virtually no impact on anyone's life.
Any sign of any results yet?
Nah - looks like they're really going to town on sorting out the disqualifications of the two teams before they get onto results Andy. Think someone posted that a few pages backQuote:
Originally Posted by AndyA
Perhaps, although I can't see why that should take so long. The groups got split up because a few entrants (not allowed to call them runners!) couldn't be bothered/were too arrogant to follow a simple safety procedure = disqualify them, simples!Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanB
Everything seems to move soooo slowly in Fellsman world! :rolleyes:
You lot are utterly amazing. The kangaroo court is in full session and will reach it’s verdict without hearing any of the evidence from either party. You talk about arrogance. I’ve never experienced anything like the arrogance shown by you. Thank goodness you do not work in the judicial system (at least I hope you don’t), as there is something about innocent until proven guilty. You have absolutely NO IDEA what happened with the group I was in and yet you spout conjecture all over the forum. If you are remotely interested, we as a group have submitted a report to the organisers for the perusal. Whether they disqualify us or not us up to them and we will abide by their decision whichever way it goes. But I’m sure that they will look at all the evidence first and make a fair judgement based upon it. Unlike you. !!:angry:
Oh wind it back in, it'll drop off!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Breath
By your own admission you lost one of your group for over 30 minutes;
That sounds like a group that got separated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Breath
Stop bleating and do as you're told next time (if there is a next time?)
You really take the biscuit. Who the hell are you to tell me to do as I'm told. I don't answer to you or anyone else on this forum. The sheer arrogance of you. You're just another juveline keyboard warrior.
Guys, I don't like the way this threads going, but your original post DB came across very negatively towards the other guy. That's probably why AndyA is appearing so harsh.
Anyway, I'm off out to get muddy. Lets just see what comes like you say DB
Gentlemen,whats happening here?Let the organisers sort this one out.it's up to them to interpret the rules as they see fit.Kangaroo courts are of no use here.Perhaps we ,the entrants, can learn a thing or two here.We all know the rules before the start so if we don't agree with them don't enter.May be thats a bit too simplistic.Lay off the guys under scrutiny until its sorted,learn from the experiences of others and come back next year a bit wiser and more determined.
This was my first Fellsman,yes i was disappointed to be pulled off the hill with the end in sight,it was a wise and brave decision of the organising team,but I'll be back as they say.I've enjoyed the banter and advice on this forum except the last few posts,is there any need to get stuck in without ALL the facts?If the truth be known, there but for the grace of god many more of us might have been in the same boat!
Dave
Just been reading this whole thread. The forum at its worst I'm afraid. Andy, if you weren't there in that group and you're not the RO then might I ask what you're doing and why you're doing it in open forum?
Sounds like DB has been honest about what happened and how he feels about it and the ROs are on it. So what are you doing? Not helping that's what. Let those that were there and those who run the event deal with it based on facts. This wilful hectoring only makes things worse.
Did the group make a bad call or were they simply inattentive? Was the chap in question ill prepared and did this compromise the group's safety? Did the weather, which was clearly bad enough for an abandonment, simply make the likelihood of a group splitting increase, or did the weather elevate the impact of something that happens most years but usually passes unnoticed? I don't know and neither does anyone else but the ROs, the marshals etc in attendance and the group concerned are those that between them can uncover what happened and what should result, eg rule changes, dsqs, org changes etc. everything else is opinion and not knowledge and is at best tittle tattle and at worse a weak platform for a bit of cyber bullying which I didn't think was welcome on this forum.
The debate on grouping or not was helpful and it's good to see that opposing views were thought about and responded to in a considered way.
Its hard not to form an opinion on what appears to have happened. Personally I'm aware that my opinion counts for nothing because I have no idea what it was like. Good luck to all those whose opinions do matter in trying to sort this out.