Fellsman

[Plod Queen]

Good Call!
The Rules are there for a good reason!
As frustrating, irritating, painfull or, even frightening, as it may be, participants in any Event of this type have a responsibility, as decent human beings to, not only take responsibility for the people in their allocated Group, but also other participants who are clearly alone and in trouble!!!
Golden Rule! Cajole, drag or carry their sufferring ass to the next Checkpoint and sort it out from there!!
Dog Breath, I don't know you, but your cold, sanctimonious, judgemental comments made on here give the impression of someone who has no regard for the Rules or the wellbeing of your fellow participants!!
I'm fairly certain that most Ultra Runners have had a bad do on a big Event like this, at one time or another! Especially in such gruesome conditions!
I sincerely hope that, if one day that happens to be you, or any of the other people that you were grouped with on this particular Event, you don't find yourselfs on the receiving end of similar, poor, treatment!
I don't know if your's is one of the Groups referred to here, under consideration for Disqualification?

[Stolly]

This may or may not be the best place to raise this but I sort of wonder, for the runners at least, whether compulsory grouping during the fellsman is really necessary. Bear with me a second on this as I fully appreciate that most fellsmanners will agree strongly with grouping and that of course the organisers can impose any rule they like, with competitor safety particularly over night and near to the end of such a grueling race being paramount. All the same its worth a thought:

1. Runners at the point of grouping have all been doing their own thing; some will be on their last legs having over cooked things to that point whilst others will have been taking it easy so that they can comfortably finish strong

2. Even though everyone is grouping a fair way into an event it doesn't remove the chance of very mixed abilities for the remainder of the race within the group

3. Like last weekend, some competitors could be suffering from cold and/or low blood sugar whilst others are fine. Yes preparation, common sense, experience and mountain craft come into that but so can simple things like runners just having completely different metabolisms.

4. Waiting for a group can itself lead to competitors having to hang about and get cold(er)

5. Many runners I am sure are reassured by joining a group and would perhaps throw in the towel if grouping wasn't there to 'save' them. Whilst this is a brilliant positive for morale boosting it can also lead to runners being tempted to bite off more than they can chew. Although the circumstances leading to the chap becoming unattached from his group near Capplestone Gate are inexcusable, that chap should almost certainly have decided to withdraw earlier rather than lumber a group with what could be a very difficult and dangerous problem

6. I'm sure some runners don't worry about the navigation of the part of the course that they will be grouped in - "someone will know"

7. When it boils down to it, what is the fundamental difference between night and day? Its darker and maybe but not always a bit colder. Visual navigation is obviously usually much more difficult but certainly running with the clag down in rain in the day time is far more difficult than running at night with clear skies. When its clear at night in fact other runners are really easy to see from their headtorches. Again if runners knew they had to be willing to bash on alone they might be far more inclined to be sure that they think they can do it

8. Runners could always group up if they wanted to regardless


Anyway just thinking out loud really. Also as an aside for next year what about a 7 am start?

[Dixie]

I agree Stolly I found myself with a group that were worn out. So after my efforts I now have no option but to see them safe and try to improve my position at the next roadside CP. Being forced to group with strangers has the recipe for trouble as has proved. Other events like the Lakeland 50 / 100 your on your own. I know it's held in the summer but if you choose to run in the spring then prepare for owt. Rule are rules and should not be broken and perhaps some sort of vetting system needs to be adopted. If you had to look after an exhausted entrant who had kidded their self they are ok to crack on then found they could go no further then I see a bad moon rising....because I know I would suffer and did trying to keep them safe.

[IanDarkpeak]

Golden Rule! Cajole, drag or carry their sufferring ass to the next Checkpoint and sort it out from there!!

I know you mean well so this is more of an observation. if you have seriously suffering(Exhaustion/Hypthermia etc) member of a group(any where any time) then by all means support, assist, give food, take rucsac off them(This has been done to me and I've done it for others), give clothing but NEVER drag or FORCE them on to the next CP, Seek shelter ASAP get them warm and feed them. if possible drop off the hill to a road for help. Remember though you are the most important person so you don't want to add to the casuality list, you can't help them or yourself if you succomb. Thats where Mountain Craft and experience come in.

Forcing some one to walk who is suffering from exhaustion will only take away their last reserves of energy and could make matters much worse.
It's a fine line but worth considering.

[plodding bear]

Difficult, this one. From the organisers point of view I should think the consequences of dropping the grouping rule could be disastrous. As Stolly points out, lots of people do it in the hope that they'll get grouped with folk who know the route. Those of us who live fairly locally always have to chance to recce the route, but those from further afield often don't.
I personally wouldn't mind going it alone, but I couldn't in all conscience leave a struggling fellow competitor to fend for themselves if it was obvious they needed a bit of help.
I think on balance I'd keep the grouping rule, I can see lots of calamities otherwise!

[Stolly]

I personally wouldn't mind going it alone, but I couldn't in all conscience leave a struggling fellow competitor to fend for themselves if it was obvious they needed a bit of help.

Agreed. That though is nothing to do with grouping as, in any race, if you came across someone in trouble you'd help.

[plodding bear]

You'd hope so, Stolly! But I think the organisers would - rightly - be VERY nervous about runners/walkers who don't know the area wandering about over Fleet Moss and so on in bad weather, in the dark, on their own. So, I think the grouping rule will be staying.

[IanDarkpeak]

only way it would ever happen is if the course was marked and I can't see that happening. so stayed group, RO's rules, not really up for discussion.

[Stolly]

You'd hope so, Stolly! But I think the organisers would - rightly - be VERY nervous about runners/walkers who don't know the area wandering about over Fleet Moss and so on in bad weather, in the dark, on their own. So, I think the grouping rule will be staying.

Yeah I'm sure it will be staying, don't get me wrong. All the same Fleet Moss is crossed in daylight by many runners and, by that time of the day, the field is spread out. I was largely on my own for over half of it this time. From a navigational point of view if you get in trouble its relatively easy to get off, just head south. Equally Buckden Pike and Great Whernside can be got off pretty quickly by heading west. And if you are on your own and do feel in trouble, you are far more likely to take that sensible option. As a group though you might be encouraged to continue, especially as the group need you to keep with them to avoid disqualification themselves.