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On balance does anyone think it'd be better to do back to back days training sessions on a weekend or one long run?
What i mean is: I want to run an 80 mile ultra and am considering whether my long run would be better to be 30 miles sat and 30 sunday or just a big 60.
That would be my longest run before the ultra and i would be building up to it by gradually increasing long runs.
Blimey I'm carping it for this 50 miler but 80:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Tupper
Good point though can we also ratio that question given the different distance ie Similar question for a 50 miler??
How long would 1 long run of 60 miles take you do you think and is it road or fell? hilly or flat??
One of the lads at our club does ultras 100k type distances about 60 ish miles. His training usually involves at the longest 4-5 hours running in anyone training run. I seem to remember him doing 30+ miles on a friday a 15 mile session on saturday and a 4 hour run on a sunday in his build up to the last one. He seems to go well off "shorter runs :eek: " than a long one in one go. Something about recovery time etc
We met a fella at the White Cliffs 50 who is a regular at the Grand Union Canal 145miler. He said he and his mate do regular 40-50mile training runs on the Downs in Sussex / Kent area but didn't go further than that normally. Interestingly he said that even tho' the GU is along a tow path those in the know walk anything that is uphill, even the short rises over bridges etc. He said that they all add up and wear you down eventually. Think his best time was c37hrs for 145ml. Where's the 80 you're doing Alf T?
Cheers for the advice.
It's a sort of self emposed one really Derby, it's a double crossing of the Lyke Wake. I'll start at Ravenscar 4pm and aim to hold myself back to 12 hour pace to arrive at Osmotherley at 4am then start the Lyke Wake Race. I've run the race twice now and walked the route numerous times.
Whilst at Loch Ness Marathon i was given a magazine of Scottish Athletics which featured ultra runners and it's their training which prompted my question.
They seemed to favour the multiple days technique rather than one big day and really for the reasons given previously: for recovery. It seems it's the recovery that becomes more and more important as mileage increases.
i'm planning on doing a few fell races in training, Rombalds Stride and The Woldsman and of course The Mallerstang Yomp.
Sorry Emmi, my training will be on the same route i'll be running on or hillier.The idea is to do the saturday longer run on the moors and the sunday locally to me in darlington. As you prob know the Lyke Wake course itself can be flat or hilly, but a dry year would help immensely.
Walking all uphills is definately essential and pacing becomes more critical. I suppose one learns from experience.
I think after the 32 on sunday I can fully agree/understand the shorter distance training runs. I could have kept going on the day but as you all point out it's the recovery afterwards I think this is a major factor for training for these sort of distances but does it get easier take less time with experience?
I've a few fell races in November but not the sort of distance needed really so I'm a bit unsure what to do in relation to preparation for the 50 miles.
It's off road but not too hilly so I think I'll manage it ok but again it's a question of how long should the longest training run be or is it a question of time on my feet for example if i go up to the lakes in November I'll be out longer no doubt covering a shorter distance but it will be hillier - eck I'm confused...........sorry Alf, not wanting to barge in on your thread :o
Hey , no probs Emmilou , your training ideas are interesting. I'm no expert by any means and like listening to others ideas on, what is not a precise science.
You'll definately be able to cover the 50 miles. You finished the Half yorkshireman in a faster time than myself and i'd already done the lyke wake race in July (40 miles).
The longest training run i'd done for it was 30 miles, but i was more concerned with keeping on my feet and pacing correctly and trying out food etc. On the day i was confident of covering the distance but the really wet conditions made running much harder than any of the training runs i'd done.
Although i'd thought about this , i'd not seen the Moors that wet, EVER!!
If you want Emmi , i'll trawl thru my list of useful websites for ultras and post them on this thread. let me know if that'll be useful.
Hi EmmilouQuote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
I've changed my training this year and I feel loads better for it. It may be that another year has built up my strength/Stamina due to muscle memory but for what it's worth here is my view for Ultras.
Distance is not that important where as time is. Last year i used to train by going out and running as hard as I could for whatever distance and then spend 4-5 day recovering.
Now I run for longer over the same course but are able to get back out within 1-2 days.
i.e if I run 5 hours for 20 miles i get out and run again much sooner than if I went out and ran it in 3.5 hours. when running ultras it's all about keeping going for long periods so slow down but go longer.
Re walking uphill. Always on the long routes, it tells near the end.
Doing a 20 miler tommorrow so perhaps I should put the wine away now...;)
Ian
That would be great Alf and you've hit on another good point - Food.
Sunday I just couldn't face much to be honest - whilst others were tucking into bagels and such the thought of solid food didn't appeal.
I had some soup about 20 miles in and a bit of cake but couldn't face bread etc.
I relied on the NOYH bon bon/date concoction and plenty of fluids but am wondering if this is enough for anything more????
The thought of bananas and sandwiches fills me with dread!
i can fully agree with that Ian and thank - I keep saying I'm built for comfort not speed the long distance stuff really suits my metronome style where as the thought of a fast 5/10km and I go to bits but the thought of plodding continuously for 8 hours and I feel fine!!Quote:
Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak
Have a look at
http://running-marathons-races.suite..._ultramarathon
thanks Ian, not sure this is me though or maybe it is and I'd just not realised:eek: :o
Ultra runners are much more laid back than regular marathoners. They have all been around the block a few times. But although they realize they can do something that less than one percent of the general population can, they are not smug about it.
It is cultural thing, you know two countries separated by a common language.Quote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
I think he (although it could be a she and I shouldn't presume) is trying to be complimentary here - around the block could infer experience rather than merely age.
Anyway, if you are happy being on your feet for 50 miles train over shorter distances because, as has been noted previously, recovery is quicker and damage to muscles & joints is less. If, however, you are not sure about eating and drinking 'on the go' or you are not sure your shoes/socks will be OK for 50 miles then maybe you need to practise at or close to that distance.
Don't forget to carry anti-inflamatories, consider taking them after 25-30 miles so that if/when you need them they are in your blood already. Carry compeeds and maybe a pin for bursting blisters and perhaps zinc oxide tape for your feet.
May also be worth a look at http://www.ldwa.org.uk/ and the 'Discussion Forum' (link on front page) where there is advice on blisters, feet balms and all sorts of other black magic to help survive long distances.
Here you go, an article to inspire you into the world of ultra distance running.
wow - hadn't really though thought of any of the feet problemsto be honest. feet were fine over 32 although I did comment that a dry pair of socks in my bag wouldn't go a miss but no blisters/pain etc at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by FellShoeShuffler
Food is definatley an issue for me though - I get bad stitches and stomach cramps etc especially with the usual 'carb' loading bread and pasta etc so do try to stay clear of it.
Thanks very much for the links and advice Ian - I think Ultra's are the way forward for me so am keen to persue things properly
Dom - where do you find this stuff???Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Ron Bentley was team manager for Tipton Harriers when I joined them. That website is one of mine - although not the article, I just cut and pasted it!Quote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
Buy a copy of this book for the best description and details of ultra running.
A Step Beyond:A Definitive Guide to Ultrarunning
http://www.ultrarunning.com/ultra/moxiepix/t43.jpg
Right at the start of the Dragons Back, 'Ruddles Rules' were very strictly imposed. Everything uphill (however slight an incline) was walked. Bearing in mind we were all going way beyond anything we had ever done before, and training was not exactly full on - more what we could fit in.
Ruddles Rules worked really well, mixing the walking/running seemed to help alleviate leg stiffness and problems after long days out on our feet. I would recommend it, due to injury much of my training was walking (hard, power walking including hills). Gained strength and time on my feet without the pounding.
A change of socks is probably worthwhile (I know of LDWA peeps who change their socks every 20 miles on a '100') and, for winter, consider waterproof socks (they won't stay dry because of sweat) but they keep the wind out and keep you feet much warmer.Quote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
Look for LDWA events over the winter to get 20-25 mile sessions and 'eating practise' without having to carry food.
[quote=emmilou;71779]
I relied on the NOYH bon bon/date concoction and plenty of fluids but am wondering if this is enough for anything more????
quote]
What flvaour bon bon powder did you use emmi?
I find the fruit flavours are better than the toffee ones. Plus you get closer to your 5 a day using lemon or strawb bon bons.
No seriously, did you find that you got sick of them after a good few hours, I find that happens towards the end of a race.
See you soon
jamie
Hows this for an inspiring story
Never heard of this guy till yesterday
http://www.my-inspirational-quotes.c...ires-a-nation/
All good stuff. Personally i didn't change socks but if you have support i think it's a good morale booster. Would have been useful on this years Lyke Wake as the mud collected under my arch and i had to stop a few times to empty out my shoes of the build up.
Emmilou: Here are sites that i've found useful
www.extremeultrarunning.com
www.movinshoes.com
www.ultrunr.com
www.slb-coaching.com
www.runnersweb.com
www.halhigdon.com/ultramarathon
www.williamsichel.co.uk
www.runfurther.com
www.ultrarunning.com
The Don Allison book is great as is Noakes Lore of running.noakes gives a few programmes for The Comrades which is a similar distance to yours. Some inspirational stories too. Hope this proves useful.
Another thought , you don't tend to notice small pains like the blister pain , later on in a race as everything else seems to mask that pain. I totally endorse having Anti Inflammatories as a backup but not to take as a matter of course. There's quite a long article on this in Don Allisons book (The Definitive guide to Ultrarunning) .
As for food , it's what you'll actually eat , which after hours of running for me is anything!! I love my roast spuds heavily salted but any good source of carbs will do.
Being a sweaty runner i take a small sponge which i can carry easily and wipe away sweat or use to douse myself down.
One thing i often find hard is the interrupted/odd sleep patterns after a really hard run, which may affect recovery for a following day run. Use of booze is needed i think!!
Thanks for the info Alf! I quite agree on the alcohol induced sleep - is there any other way?!!:rolleyes:
[quote=NotOnUrHelly;71990]sorry jamie missed thisQuote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
er i used the lemon flavour ones - not sure I got sick of them to be honest wasn't so keen on the warm mushed dates though after 6 hours of carrying them in a sweaty little plastic bag but they seemed to do the job!!
Lol emmilou, i'm sure they're other ways of falling asleep but i reckon i'd be too tired to try them out!! I tried counting sheep but as i'd been looking at them all day etc. Out of interest what is your 50 miler? Rotherham?
yeah it is - but I'm interested in this april one you post of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Tupper
maybe we should go for a jolly round an about eat cake and have a chat about it!!
Sounds like fun. I'm doing Rombalds Stride in Feb and probably Trollers trot in March or Wuthering Hike. Forgot 9 standards Fell Race on New Years day.
If the Hobbly Hike is going ahead!!!!
Actually, why is it I can't do distance running???????
You must stop too soon - just keep going, that is all there is to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by brett
Whats the 'Hobbly Hike' ,Brett ?
Aha!!!! Should have worked that out. Seeing as kcac do such a good job with the Yorkshireman i thought i'd give this a go.
well, you might not be able to?!?!!?!?!
why is that then young master?Quote:
Originally Posted by brett
what's this training thing i keep hearing about then?
cos we can't use the Bunkhouse place next year - it's being redeveloped
So there may not be a Hobblihike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Because you don't carry enough fat brett!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by brett
(unlike me!)