naylors descending technique

i was recently watching my naylors run DVD and i cannot quite make out what Joss is saying as he comes down that mountain where he is talking about techniques and stuff
the audio does not come across very well
can someone please tell me what he says when he is talkin something about people doing it all wrong

ive noticed he has a very kind of easy action for coming down, did he alter his style specifically for the long challenges or has he always descended like that.
noticed also that he has trouble with his lower back on the video as well, its a trait i suffer with also which is def aggrevated by steep climbs when im bent over, has joss always suffered from a bad back, i would luv to ask him if there is different techniques to hold off the onslaught of back pain

i suggest he would probably say daz just grin and bear it
he seems to know what it takes to look after his body,
my point really is is there anything i can do differently to my technique on the uphills and downhills to alleviate the problem.

There are others on here that know The history of Joss and his back better than i do, but i believe that back problems have always been a problem for Joss, in fact i believe he had surgery on his back in his youth and was told by his doctors that he would not be running again, the rest is history

As to his descending technique i have never been able to stay with him long enough on a descent to analyse it, (it sure put my efforts on Ennerdale last year in perspective, when 70 year old Joss came hurtling by me down a scree slope with hardly a piece of scree moving under his walshes, when every step i took seemed to be tempting the whole slope to slide from under me) the man is a living legend no doubt about that.

I think he is saying something like.... You have to keep your knees bent, not ridgid, as it puts too much pressure on them. He sees younger runners too tense hurtling down hill and that you only get one set of knees, so look after them as the replacements are nt as good!

I now try and keep my knees bent and lean forward, puts alot of pressure on the quads though.

i have tried to copy it but its not that easy you know:(
joss seems to stoop over and keep his knees bent and looks very very controlled goin down
it just looks effortless

in the DVD he does explain that not to fully straightn your leg out as it doesn't absorb the shock the same..

Always makes me smile, that bit where he says, "Aye, me feet don't belong to us".

Had to show that dvd to my mom and dad - show them what they could have been doing instead of watching telly.

He's got one knee replacement hasn't he? And one thigh so much bigger than the other, where he puts all his weight on the real leg.

I think you're right Daz, and he just runs with the back pain. He must have a terrific tolerance to pain to do what he does.

Having spent years coming down the wrong way, I have had to completely re-style my running stance. Essentially, I was leaning back too much to try to regain control. This buts your back into hyperextension (arched backwards) and puts severe pressure on the joints at the back, the facets. These eventually give out and cause pain. Now, I have to consciously lean forward when walking and running just to maintain a 'normal' stance. When I first started descending this way, it felt weird because I always felt I was going to fall forwards. After a while, it became more natural and I realised that my legs were not getting so trashed. Granted, it does not seem as fast but that is more likely due to decrepitude. Looking at pics of Joss, this seems to be what he has perfected....a knees bent, leaning forwards downhill dash, much like our little black friend a few inches up and to the right!

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Originally Posted by The Juicer

Always makes me smile, that bit where he says, "Aye, me feet don't belong to us". And one thigh so much bigger than the other, where he puts all his weight on the real leg.

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"Aye, t'other leg just comes for the ride..."

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Looking at pics of Joss, this seems to be what he has perfected....a knees bent, leaning forwards downhill dash

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Ian Holmes seems to lean back rather than forward. His style is totally different to Joss's.

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Originally Posted by The Juicer

He's got one knee replacement hasn't he?

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According to the excellent Feet In the Clouds, he had all the cartilege removed from one knee as a youth. It's probably easier keeping your knees bent if you're unable to straighten them ;-)

Aye ;-)

On another DVD - one about the Lakes (the one where Cameron McNeish walks with Joss), there's another bit where he's with a fella called Ken Ledward. This Ken is skipping up some rather ambitious looking scrambling, when he announces he's got TWO hip replacements!!

And I moan at every little niggle....... :rolleyes:

my descending techniques goes something like this ;

get to top of hill, legs burning
turn to go down
why wont my legs work
where've they gone
oh well here goes
start steady
pick the line
get overtaken
shit
right stride out a bit
watch that stone
ow !
get overtaken
must remember to keep legs bent and lean forward
ah a smooth bit
thats better a bit of speed
damn my eyes are watering
cant see a thing
watch that loose rock
missed it great
shit, woh, bugger
oh look at the view
no dont look at the view concentrate
get overtaken
what speeds the Garmin showing
ow feck thats my ankle gone
why do I always try and look at my Garmin going downhill
'hobble curse hobble curse'
get overtaken
do I not like descending
stop whimpering ya big puff
Joss and Billy wouldnt be moaning they'd telling you to get your head straight and carry on
right here goes again
shit I'm at the bottom already !
:eek:

That makes me smile Denzil! Should I now feel guilty about being a little bit smug about my own ability to run downhill? No 'cos I still can't run up them!

I can ascend hard (on a day when I'm not knackered)
I can descend like a demon.

So why aren't I up there in the races???

Because I'm sh1t on the flat!!! (oh yes & naturally there is always someone who can ascend & descend harder than you - the guy who wins the races generally).

That's where a lot of the difference is made!!!

As for descending well, the secret is as they say "brains off, brakes off". Let yourself relax, don't check your descent (trying to hold yourelf back is a ticket to the injury you think you're preventing). Sugar, better not give too many secrets away, or else more road runners will be coming on the fells & we won't be able to take ground back on the descents now they know our secrets!!!

I think a lot of it is getting into your stride fast enough, especially on the flats, maybe its speed of recovery from the ascent or ability to change stride, but I find better runners pull away from me at the brow of the hill/entering the flat.


Anyway I've also found that British Fell runners are excellent descenders. Over in NZ I don't think I was ever beaten on a descent by a kiwi, if you broke the legs down the brits would almost always be the top 3 fastest descenders. No idea why, maybe its the fact we do such rough fell race routes rather than trails. Over here, while my descendings OK I have to really work to maintain my position, over there I knew I'd always make up a good few minutes on the descents.

Denzil yout technique mirrors mine exactly. I have completely failed to master this 'disengage brain' method. My brain is constantly warning me that death is imminent. Guess I'll always be a wuss. Luckily I can climb like a demon.

Clodhopper, just wish my ascending was 'demonlike', more like 'Stannah Stairlift', that is I can climb most things but only at a pace slightly slower than my granny with the arthritic knee and false hip ! However I would be able to carry Thora Hird on my back and ensure she didnt spill any of her cup of tea !!!:rolleyes:

my problem isnt disengaging my brain , i think myself im that knackered after climbing , perhaps i should ease back a bit on the climb and put more into the descent:)

Daz, probably a lot of sense in that as but if you're like me then you just want to overtake people. I know I have to take people on the ups cos I'm crap at coming down so I push harder, which in turns means dead legs to descend with. If I had the sense to hold back a bit on the up as you suggest then I might descend better. Trouble is whenever a race comes, common sense goes out the window !!:)

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Originally Posted by Denzil

Clodhopper, just wish my ascending was 'demonlike', more like 'Stannah Stairlift', that is I can climb most things but only at a pace slightly slower than my granny with the arthritic knee and false hip ! However I would be able to carry Thora Hird on my back and ensure she didnt spill any of her cup of tea !!!:rolleyes:

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Mind you, having given this more thought I can in reallity only climb like a demon when compared to the field full of arthritic grannies. This probably explains why I am only a mid pack runner.
If anyone can suggest a race where the other competitors are all arthritic grannies please could you post a link so that I might be able to win something.
Trouble is half a dozen of them would probably pass me on the way down.

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Originally Posted by Denzil

Trouble is whenever a race comes, common sense goes out the window !!:)

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So true.
I usually have a plan in mind, to finish strong and fast downhill but I disengage the brain on the ascent and fatigue takes over and its the similar story to Denzils descent.

PS Do Garmin's help of just make you stumble more?

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Originally Posted by daz h

my problem isnt disengaging my brain , i think myself im that knackered after climbing , perhaps i should ease back a bit on the climb and put more into the descent:)

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No, Don't think yourself knackered & you won't be!!!

Though maybe some work on recovery might help??

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Originally Posted by Stagger

So true.
I usually have a plan in mind, to finish strong and fast downhill but I disengage the brain on the ascent and fatigue takes over and its the similar story to Denzils descent.

PS Do Garmin's help of just make you stumble more?

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Garmins are great if you set yourself an overall pace to do a race at as you can keep glancing to see how you are doing. However, only really useful on the longer type races that I enjoy. I made the mistake of setting it to warn me (by beeping) when I went slower than 3mph when I did Borrowdale the other year. Dont mind it beeping on the ascents but when it started beeping on the descents too I got well fecked off !!! I would have said I was descending like a big girl, but judging by the way some of the ladies past me that day I would have been happy to do it that well !! Think it must be something to do with ladies having to wear high heels and they have more balance and stronger ankles !!

So thats it then problem solved. To be able to be a better descender run up and down your stairs at home in your ladies (or maybe your own !!!) high heels. Promotes better balance and improved ankle strength !!

You wont find that in Dr Tim Noakes 'Law on Running' !!!:D

Good point actually - when I do speed work I'm up on my toes & likewise when I want to force it on a bike I am also the same. Also jumping round dancing like a loon in a nightclub, I'm also on my toes - giving more strength in my calves.

Build a bit of quad strength helps on the ascents as well. Most of it however is mental.

(LOL just realised I could market this as the AllanT fun hillclimbing strength regime!!!)

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Originally Posted by AllanT

Good point actually - when I do speed work I'm up on my toes & likewise when I want to force it on a bike I am also the same. Also jumping round dancing like a loon in a nightclub, I'm also on my toes - giving more strength in my calves.

Build a bit of quad strength helps on the ascents as well. Most of it however is mental.

(LOL just realised I could market this as the AllanT fun hillclimbing strength regime!!!)

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its funny that allan
a good couple of hrs dancing in a niteclub is a very good exercise
but honestly
races like famous grouse really do suit me
a long uphill climb to start and im happy:)
with me and can literally fly down very technical rocky decents but nice grassy or even descents really benefit strong downhill runners.

at liversedge on sunday i pulled away from a pack of runners early on on the long climb but the short steep downhill at 4 miles they all came by again but sure enough on the next climb i pulled them back, so to be honest ive just accepted that without specific downhill reps im happy were i am although i bloody hate it when some come by

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Originally Posted by daz h

its funny that allan
a good couple of hrs dancing in a niteclub is a very good exercise
but honestly
races like famous grouse really do suit me
a long uphill climb to start and im happy:)
with me and can literally fly down very technical rocky decents but nice grassy or even descents really benefit strong downhill runners.

at liversedge on sunday i pulled away from a pack of runners early on on the long climb but the short steep downhill at 4 miles they all came by again but sure enough on the next climb i pulled them back, so to be honest ive just accepted that without specific downhill reps im happy were i am although i bloody hate it when some come by

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how did it go on sunday daz was the new hill as bad as the old? i pulled out of race because of ankle problems, i'm back for ilkley moor though.

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Originally Posted by cobbydale

how did it go on sunday daz was the new hill as bad as the old? i pulled out of race because of ankle problems, i'm back for ilkley moor though.

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to be fair i tried to go with the 1st lady but my plan backfired at 2 miles as she pulled away
the course is about the same
i knew i was in a mess at 1 mile cos even though its downhill i went through at 5.30 :eek:
took me 11 miles to pull her back only for her to sprint the last 50yds away from me , shook her hand at the end, was well pleased for her.
its not a bad 1/2 for fellrunners , nice and hilly
, good views