land of giants

[Wheeze]

Guick if my wife was next to you with a broken leg, and you had two broken legs, my priority would be my wife.To say I should put you first, sums up the evil of the altruist position.

Many of Those mountaineers on Everest are just like you.People who believe that others come first.It's amazing how the flaws in ones moral code become exposed on the worlds highest mountain!

Altruism can never be evil, merely abused. The truth is that, in your scenario, the person with the one broken leg is likely to survive but the one with 2 broken legs is at risk of dying. Do the right thing. Save the life and worry about patching up the problems of the living later. Only that way will you be able to sleep at night (if you have any scrap of conscience at all!).

Please don't equate fat cats with business men. Thats as biased a few as assuming that all less well-off are scroungers! There is good and bad at both ends of the spectrum and lots in the middle too. Advocating selfishness as a first law of looking after yourself merely plays into the hands of the bad.

Agreed, the bad are doing very well living off the arrangements made for the genuinely needy but the job of society and government is to strive to minimise that without diminishing the greater good of continuing that support. It's all part of the democratic process.

[Guick Dotto]

Guick if my wife was next to you with a broken leg, and you had two broken legs, my priority would be my wife.To say I should put you first, sums up the evil of the altruist position.

Many of Those mountaineers on Everest are just like you.People who believe that others come first.It's amazing how the flaws in ones moral code become exposed on the worlds highest mountain!

I don't suppose I'd climb over my wife to get to you either Chris!
I don't get that bit about the mountaineers on Everest. I don't think I would walk on by you know. I was going up to Broad Stand to rig it for a friend who was doing the BG. Up on the Corridoor Route there were these blokes shouting and waving and as I approached them I thought "Bugger! I'm going to have to help these sods and let my mate down." I didn't feel I had a choice you see. What's more I know my friend would've b*llocked me if I'd walked on by. She's a doctor, if that's relevant. Anyway they were just prats (it's ok I knew one of them) who'd been in the pub, trying to attract their friend's attention. He was on his way up Great Gable to give you an idea of how loud they were shouting. So phew! it was ok to keep moving. And she did the BG too!
Everest, it's just a hill. People first everytime.

[CL]

Altruism can never be evil, merely abused. The truth is that, in your scenario, the person with the one broken leg is likely to survive but the one with 2 broken legs is at risk of dying. Do the right thing. Save the life and worry about patching up the problems of the living later. Only that way will you be able to sleep at night (if you have any scrap of conscience at all!).

Please don't equate fat cats with business men. Thats as biased a few as assuming that all less well-off are scroungers! There is good and bad at both ends of the spectrum and lots in the middle too. Advocating selfishness as a first law of looking after yourself merely plays into the hands of the bad.

Agreed, the bad are doing very well living off the arrangements made for the genuinely needy but the job of society and government is to strive to minimise that without diminishing the greater good of continuing that support. It's all part of the democratic process.

Just got in after a 4mile run and the gloves are on!

Abuse and Altruism are corollaries.One cannot exist without the other.The term Altruism was originated by the philosopher Auguste Comte, and it means,OTHER.

Don't mistaken Altruism with kindness and generosity.Altruism states that a Man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is his only moral justification.

Selfishness means 'concerned with ones own interests.' Most people equate Selfishness with hedonism.But, just because you want something doesn't mean it's in your interests.A Man has to discover what values are actually to his interests.

I'm not saying(as is perfectly clear from my responses)that it's wrong to help someone if you want to(although it might be in certain situations i.e foreign policy).

I'm saying that it's wrong to be forced if one doesn't want to help.

I didn't invent the term Fat-Cats, I personally don't like it.The truth is though, that people use it to refer to managers and business Men.

All your other points I've already answered in previous responses.

[CL]

[QUOTE=Guick Dotto;104586]I don't suppose I'd climb over my wife to get to you either Chris!

Guick were beginning to understand each other!

[CL]

I don't suppose I'd climb over my wife to get to you either Chris!
I don't get that bit about the mountaineers on Everest. I don't think I would walk on by you know. I was going up to Broad Stand to rig it for a friend who was doing the BG. Up on the Corridoor Route there were these blokes shouting and waving and as I approached them I thought "Bugger! I'm going to have to help these sods and let my mate down." I didn't feel I had a choice you see. What's more I know my friend would've b*llocked me if I'd walked on by. She's a doctor, if that's relevant. Anyway they were just prats (it's ok I knew one of them) who'd been in the pub, trying to attract their friend's attention. He was on his way up Great Gable to give you an idea of how loud they were shouting. So phew! it was ok to keep moving. And she did the BG too!
Everest, it's just a hill. People first everytime.

There have been cases where climbers have got into difficulty on Everest.Other climbers have come to that point, and realising that trying to help that person, would mean sacrificing their own life, have kept on going.

I personally would sit with them for as long as I could, even though they knew the risks, and then I'd descend the mountain.BUT,I wouldn't consider it mandatory.If I passed an injured person at the top of Everest, and they were incapable, I'd have to walk by.

Doctors! Aside from their medical skills, I have a pretty low opinion of them.They allow the government to boss them around,without so much as a scrap of protest.

Although I wouldn't tell them that if I was on the operating table!!!!!!

[Wheeze]

Outside of their profession, doctors are just people like anyone else. But within their profession they have to understand the concept of triage, operating sometimes for the greater good.

One can deflect a debate by delving into the root meaning of words. But this is just a show of knowledge. What counts is what people understand by words now.
As a rule, selfishness is reprehensible. Altruism is something humanists aspire to. Without altruism we become selfish savages.

[Guick Dotto]

I missed the bit about Ayn Rand. Sounds like an anagram: Dan Ryan? It's not you Christopher is it?
That's clever. I mean Guick Dotto is so obviously made up.

So... an oxymoronic philosophy "The Virtue of Selfishness". A good starting point for a new metaphysics...hmm what about "The Selflessness of Selfishness"; or "The Nasty Saint: How to spread joy by snarling."
I suppose Epicureanism is the original oxymoronic philosophy (in its practice) because it seems to be saying that we are here to enjoy ourselves. "Great!" you say. Then you find out that true pleasure is brought about by self restraint, peace and quiet, caring about others and so on. "Oh bugger!" you shout. I thought I'd found a perfectly respectable, ancient belief system that lets me take care of numbero one-o with a clear conscience then I find out it's just like all the others: Wicca, Stoicism, Christianity, Sikhism, Islam, Socialism etc etc down through the ages wise gits coming up with the same old message: love one another.
Answer: Do it yourself. Very quickly. Message: love the one you're with.
And if it makes you as happy as you seem to be: sorted.

[Also Ran]

Chill people - this is the FRA forum. Not much mention of running up mountains!!! (Apart from passing dying people on Everest)

[Wheeze]

Yes, but mate - this is 'Down The Pub'. The free speech part of the forum. Anything goes here. The common thread is that it is (or should be) fell runners exchanging views. Is Christopher Leigh a fell runner?

[daz h]

Chill people - this is the FRA forum. Not much mention of running up mountains!!! (Apart from passing dying people on Everest)

err we are having a good debate here
lots of talk about selfishness in our society which i personally think has been created by the way in which this country has been allowed to spiral. The scroungers are simply being paid to sit on there arses having a nice steady life which annoys us members in society that have grafted for what we have.

a case in point
we have a young lad here on job placement to try and get him into work yes. I have given him a chance by accepting him. Right he has been here 4 months in which time he is constantly late , had days off, knocked his missus about, and so on , bear in mind they are having there first child.

Just a quick background on her , never worked, now has a subsidised flat and on benefit.
Right i have a message on my desk this morning that says Darren can you ring social services about this lad because he has to attend a meeting today at 11.00am because he is due in court on thursday for beating her up and there baby is due next week .
so basically social services want ME TO RING THEM AND GIVE HIM TIME OFF.
Is it me but im just thinking in my mind the costs
1, costs to society for subsidising his wages
2, costs of running social services
3, costs to my employer for him having time off
4, costs of her benefits
5, so on and so on
6, oh and the costs of my time and phone calls to sort it
7,i honestly cant be arsed
see thats how we become selfish