World Cross Country

[CL]

You stated,


Yet two of, if not, the two greatest distance runners in this country have both advocated upper body work.[/QUOTE]

Dom "do you think you can dissect me with that blunt little tool" (anyone know which film?)

you didn't deal with the whole quote.Just one look at Paula and Seb, will prove that I'm right.

[CL]

Drugs are only implied by those who do not know any better and cannot accept that people can achieve world class standards using legal methods.

There is no corrrelation between the breaking of world athletic records and the use of performance enhancing drugs. If there is any hard evidence that a world athletic record has been broken illegally then the IAAF would not approve it.

Making unfounded allegations that drugs are implied because records are now 'super fast' shows your lack of knowledge of the sport and indicates that your real desire is to bring the sport into disrepute.

If I told my gran that the 100m world record was 8 seconds, she'd just say "Well I'm 92 you know." She has no concept of whats possible, because she doesn't understand the sport.

If I told a non athletic sportsman that the world record for 100m was 8secs, he'd probably say "rubbish." If I told him it was 9.5secs, he'd say "that's good."

The point is seperating the "possible" from the "impossible." To do that in regard to distance running, you have to have knowledge of the physical laws operating in our sport.Most people including many top athletes don't understand these laws and hence support their own enemies.

I have done that (as Crowhill did it in regard to Flo-jo)in regard to the ridiculous times being run by certain athletes.

[CL]

Sorry Chris I do not know where you get your 'facts' from, but once you get to marathon length endurance events many other factors become significant.

I agree that for circa 10 kmto half marathon events then ability to take up oxygen and use it is critically important, but once you get to distances above that then this is not the case - here other fatigue mechanisms plus ability to take in and use substrates etc are critical

But with your background you would know that or another blind spot?

Saz I've taken the above points into consideration for this question:

Who will run faster over the marathon distance.An athlete with an oxygen uptake of 6litres a min and a debt capacity of 10litres or the same athlete with an oxygen uptake of 4litres a min and a debt capacity of 15litres?

[luath]

I'd love you pick you up several topics CL, but here's an easy one for starters:

The facts are as you run faster, you require more fuel.To burn a greater quantity of fuel requires more oxygen.This cannot be disputed.

It certainly can be disputed: If I run faster by running more efficiently, I do not require more fuel. I therefore do not require more oxygen.

[CL]

I'd love you pick you up several topics CL, but here's an easy one for starters:



It certainly can be disputed: If I run faster by running more efficiently, I do not require more fuel. I therefore do not require more oxygen.

You're having a luath laugh.

You certainly do require more oxygen, unless your comparing yourself to a previous state.We're talking about world class athletes on this thread though.

To make this clear.If an athlete on day one runs at 10mph for one minute, and 12mph for the next, he requires more oxygen to run at 12mph.Unless he deliberately wastes energy at 10mph to prove his point.

Once you keep the context it is easy.

[saz]

CL

It depends on which one has the better speed at whatever their sustainable % of maximum speed is - ie if the runner with a lower Vomax can work at a higher % of it than the runner with the higher Vo2max then they will go faster

Also it will depend on how efficiently they are able to use either body fat stores or external energy sources during the latter stages of the race

Some one with a high Vo2 max but who uses a high % of carbohydate as opposed to fat will be great for 60-90 minutes of running but struggle after that

[fellhell]

I just hope someone like Haile.G or his friends never come across this thread or there could be trouble.

[Chris]

Saz I've taken the above points into consideration for this question:

Who will run faster over the marathon distance.An athlete with an oxygen uptake of 6litres a min and a debt capacity of 10litres or the same athlete with an oxygen uptake of 4litres a min and a debt capacity of 15litres?

I expect we know what your question means, even if you don't because they wouldn't be the "same athlete" would they?

What you mean is "same in every other respect" but that would make your argument circular - which I think was obvious some time ago.

[Bladerunner]

Was involved in this thread near the start, left and all hell broke loose.

However lets look at some FACTS that support one side of this argument...and just to let you know I was a member of Hallamshire at the same time as Coe was running his world records and infrequently saw him training and more frequently saw Peter Elliot and John Brown training and frequently trained with Carl Thackery (for those of you who don't know the name UK 15,000M and 20,000M (57.28!!) record holder and top 3 all time 10miles 46.07 and 1/2marathon. 61.04

Re 10 miles in 45 mins, whether he did or not I don't know but what I do know is he would have more than given Carl a race over 10 miles and he could do it in 46 mins!! Anyone who can run 8x800m in 'well' under 2 mins with 45 secs rest and has a mile pb of 3.46 is gonna find 4.35 pace pretty easy for a fair distance!!

Re weights, in winter he did 2 or 3 sessions a week and could front squat well over twice his bodyweight. Remember hsi father/coach was a scientist and everything Coe did was specific to running middle distances at world record pace. Power to weight ratio is crucial and this was how they developed that.

Finally to the person who said if he could do that over long distance why didn't he....pretty obvious really why would he? he won 2 Olympic golds, 2 Olympic silvers and set numerous world records between 800m and 1 mile...its only mere mortals who feel the need to test themselves over many distances, when you're the best at something you stick at it, you don't get there by being a jack of all trades!!

[fellhell]

Finally to the person who said if he could do that over long distance why didn't he....pretty obvious really why would he? he won 2 Olympic golds, 2 Olympic silvers and set numerous world records between 800m and 1 mile...its only mere mortals who feel the need to test themselves over many distances, when you're the best at something you stick at it, you don't get there by being a jack of all trades!!

That person was me.
And no it's not pretty obvious, or I wouldn't have asked.

Why would he? isn't really an answer and doesn't convince me that Coe could have matched his achievements at 800/1500 at a longer distance. We're not talking about a jack of all trades, we're considering the idea he would be a master of all trades.