Makes you proud to be British

[biara]

CL, was expecting your comments and glad to see you didn't disappoint.

My view on schooling is all should be able to achieve to the best of their ability, the fact is the local school did not do that. My eldest is a great child but circumstances have given her a pretty unfair start in life and the local comp did not deliver. My wife and I then took the decision to go private as we wanted the best possible for her.

Yes, stand by your principles, I agree with but only to a point, where we did live (Hertford) there were 2 decent comps on the doorstep, I'd have sent her to them quite happily.

I agree on grammar schools being divisive and I do have issues with those just below the thrshold. Latest research apparently states the brain is not fully developed until aged about 24, so choosing at 11 seems wrong.

I think principles are correct but at times, they need to be looked at and maybe swallow your pride and go against them. But that is my view and I'm happy to accept you view things differently.

[CL]

Take an example CL, where someone believes that the state should intervene to close down public schools, since they think this would benefit the overall education system.

But, since the government doesn't close public schools, that person would be perfectly justified in sending their kids to a public school, since they currently offer better schooling in certain areas.

I'd love to sometimes discuss your life-choices CL. Most people take decisions based on a range of reasons. This often opens them up to the unjust criticism of being a hypocrit (or a wimp !?).

Noel, what you are saying is irrelevant to my argument.My position is, people who say "I don't like private education" then send their children to private schools are hypocrites.

A bloke goes in to the doctor and says "doctor my arm hurts when I move it up and down."

Doctor says "well don't do it then."

[CL]

CL, was expecting your comments and glad to see you didn't disappoint.

My view on schooling is all should be able to achieve to the best of their ability, the fact is the local school did not do that. My eldest is a great child but circumstances have given her a pretty unfair start in life and the local comp did not deliver. My wife and I then took the decision to go private as we wanted the best possible for her.

Yes, stand by your principles, I agree with but only to a point, where we did live (Hertford) there were 2 decent comps on the doorstep, I'd have sent her to them quite happily.

I agree on grammar schools being divisive and I do have issues with those just below the thrshold. Latest research apparently states the brain is not fully developed until aged about 24, so choosing at 11 seems wrong.

I think principles are correct but at times, they need to be looked at and maybe swallow your pride and go against them. But that is my view and I'm happy to accept you view things differently.

Biara there is nothing wrong with changing your principles when you realise they are wrong. I've done lots of things in my life that were wrong, and I can't change them now. All I can do is make sure I don't do them again, by changing my ideas on certain things.

To criticise something for being good is dishonest and hypocritical. You say the private school is giving your daughter a better education, then in the next breath you say I don't like private.

The honest thing to say is "I used to believe in state education, but since my daughter has been going to private school, I've seen the light.Now I support private education."

That isn't what you are doing though. You're stabbing in the back the very principles that make your daughter's education possible.

[biara]

Biara there is nothing wrong with changing your principles when you realise they are wrong. I've done lots of things in my life that were wrong, and I can't change them now. All I can do is make sure I don't do them again, by changing my ideas on certain things.

To criticise something for being good is dishonest and hypocritical. You say the private school is giving your daughter a better education, then in the next breath you say I don't like private.

The honest thing to say is "I used to believe in state education, but since my daughter has been going to private school, I've seen the light.Now I support private education."

That isn't what you are doing though. You're stabbing in the back the very principles that make your daughter's education possible.

1st bold - like the honesty
2nd bold - I believe in education, as I've stated on other posts, I'm still not a fan of private education, but of good education. I criticise the fact that I have to pay for something that I feel should be provided in the local comprehensive. If I lived in other parts of the country, this education would be provided. I accept the comment on hypocrisy, I recognise that, hence I said it. I told the head that I wasn't a fan of private schools, she appreciated the honesty, but I told her I liked her school and what it can provide.

I still believe in state education and those who know me, are aware of where I actually work. I know I could get the same money for alot less hassle and much less stress, but I believe in how education can help all. In fact I've spent precious little time in so-called 'good' schools, maybe that's why I'm losing my hair.

[Witton Park]

It worked so well did it Witton? Right answer this please. What happens to the children who only just fail their 11+ and are sent to secondary schools?

As happened to my best fried at Primary, they go to a good secondary modern, are succesful in their GCE's (as they were then) and then he rejoined me in the 6th form at the Grammar School and went off to Uni.

Just because you went to a secondary modern it didn't mean you were consigned to the scrap heap.

The school involved was Fearns (the base for the Pennine Bridleway) and it was a much better school in the 60's and 70s than it is now as a "Community Sports College".

It used to be a secondary school and now it's a second rate school with parents chosing Hassy High, Alder Grange and Whitwoth High ahead of it - something that would never have happened 30 years ago.

[CL]

You just see things too black and white CL (although I'm sure 99.9% of the time it's just to get a rise out of folk as surely no-one is really so naive and judgemental?) ... life isn't that simple nor are the decisions that people have to make. Yes, you can argue that someone who's against private schools but sends their kids to one is a hypocrite, but, if the state school on offer is no good, why should the child suffer for their parents' beliefs? Sometimes morals and principles have to be compromised and, although doing so will cause people mental anguish and weaken their stance, it certainly doesn't make them wimps or bad people. In fact knowing when to compromise your own principles for the sake of others takes wisdom, maturity and courage. If only because you have to defend your actions to blinkered individuals who adopt a holier than thou attitude.

Also I think your corrupting of the "Forum Mascots" thread which was a bit of lighthearted and good natured fun with your personal and unprovoked attack of LD, was totally out of order and not in the spirit of this forum. I've enjoyed some of my debates with you but I think you need to wind your head in a bit.

If we assume that black and white mean good and evil, then choosing a 'grey' mixture is unacceptable. Now there are times when we can't act on our principles, because discrimination by the state prevents us from doing so.

That isn't so with Biara's stand. The government isn't stopping him sending his daughter to a state school. Therefore disliking private=sending daughter to state school.

Just a paragraph on Longdogs. I got in to trouble over that. It winds me up though when people of expected intelligence come on here lying to us. Telling us one thing and practising another. Then when I point out the hypocrisy she starts insulting me. That combined with other inappropriate remarks made at an earlier date.

[noel]

Noel, what you are saying is irrelevant to my argument.

No it isn't. You just don't want to accept it.

[CL]

As happened to my best fried at Primary, they go to a good secondary modern, are succesful in their GCE's (as they were then) and then he rejoined me in the 6th form at the Grammar School and went off to Uni.

Just because you went to a secondary modern it didn't mean you were consigned to the scrap heap.

The school involved was Fearns (the base for the Pennine Bridleway) and it was a much better school in the 60's and 70s than it is now as a "Community Sports College".

It used to be a secondary school and now it's a second rate school with parents chosing Hassy High, Alder Grange and Whitwoth High ahead of it - something that would never have happened 30 years ago.

Yes that is one possibility Witton, but here is the other and most common. Those kids end up in a secondary school where the local yobs from dysfunctional families make their lives miserable, and their education impossible.

Now some kids still manage to succeed, but the rest just give up. Hardly anybody from my school, if any, past their 0 level exams. That's because the lessons were interrupted by insolence and arguing. Scrap heap education you see.

[Witton Park]

Biara - unfortunately I have a tendancy to side with CL - I wouldn't label you as a hypocrite, but you do seem to respond in a way that has inconsistancies.

Post 325 for example point 2 - low achieving schools still produce high class pupils.
So then why chose private if you really believe that? Especially with the home back up that you could provide as a teacher yourself.


If a child goes to an athletics club at the age of 11, we give them a taste of various events, assess them and try and point them in the direction that we feel they are best suited - of course they must also prefer and want to do that. It's no good trying to make a High Jumper out of someone who wants to sprint - they will not be in the sport for long.
If at 14 you find out that they have a talent for Discus, they can change direction.

For me the same principles apply to education.

We are trying to ensure that we equip children with the tools to cope with life. For some that's an academic education - and there the Grammar's would provide.
For other's it would be a vocational perhaps, this is where the old system worked.

It wasn't elitist. My parents were shoe factory people - I went to the Grammar, my 3 brothers to the SM.
They all got well educated with good jobs.
For two of them the link to their first job started in 4th year (now year 10) when they were placed with a Plumber and an architect on work experience and both gained specific qualifications and during their schooling and left to a job with further training linked to it.

It also wasn't rigid. Many of the kids from the SM came back in to the 6th form, as the SM also still ofered that academic route, but perhaps just tailored in a slightly different way to accomodate the later development of their intake - so these kids were not written off.

We did actually have a small number of kids that moved during the Year 7 - 11 period - usually in Year 8/9 before subject choices had been made - so I assume that there was some continuous assessment in place rather than just 100% relying on the 11+.

[Witton Park]

Yes that is one possibility Witton, but here is the other and most common. Those kids end up in a secondary school where the local yobs from dysfunctional families make their lives miserable, and their education impossible.

Now some kids still manage to succeed, but the rest just give up. Hardly anybody from my school, if any, past their 0 level exams. That's because the lessons were interrupted by insolence and arguing. Scrap heap education you see.

But you are talking about now and I'm refering to the system of the 60s and 70s.
The SM school that I am referring to wasn't full of yobs hampering the kids that wanted to learn.

The system has been tinkered with so much that we don't have a system anymore.

I mean really - can anybody tell me what relevance a "Community Sports College" has for the kids that go there.
We have St Bedes at the back of me. It's Catholic. So it's intake is on religious grounds but the "branding" makes you think that sporty kids would benefit from gong there.

Witton Park High - "Business & Technology College" - full of the next generation of Sir Clive Sinclair's and Alan Sugars?
I don't think so.

The country is awash with branding, gimmicks ... in all walks of live now - back to basics I say.